From: Dutch <>
Subject: Re: Where Are All Our Wingnuts?
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Subject: Re: Where Are All Our Wingnuts?
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On 2/3/2018 10:00 PM, Clave wrote:
> On 2/3/2018 9:19 PM, Dutch wrote:
>> On 2/3/2018 7:50 PM, Clave wrote:
>>>> And yes, I am aware that "collusion" per se, in and of itself is not 
>>>> a crime.
>>> The obstruction *IS* the collusion.
>> I don't follow. The Trump campaign colluded with Russia, i.e. 
>> *illegally* exchanged promises to drop sanctions in exchange for the 
>> release of *illegally obtained* damaging information about Clinton, 
>> then subsequently the Trumpsters have, in a variety of ways, worked to 
>> *illegally* obstruct the investigation into it. There appears to me to 
>> be separate and independent sets of crimes.
> There is no such crime as "collusion."

I know, I didn't call it a crime.
> There currently exists no (public) proof of the quid pro quo you allege 
> regarding sanctions.  Correlation is not proof of causation, although 
> there are hot bullet shells all over the floor.

afaik Flynn admitted it. It also appears that he is admitting that he 
cleared it with the Whitehouse.
It all tracked with weird mutual conciliatory 'wink-wink' public 
statements by Putin and Trump.

> What we *DO* know is that obstruction of justice has happened, and is 
> still happening.  The T-Rump campaign, transition and administration 
> have all been complicit, and now the majority of the GOP is as well.
> That much is beyond rational debate.
> Russia helped put this clown in office, and obstructing the 
> investigation and prosecution of that, all by itself given the magnitude 
> it now possesses, is enough quid pro quo to satisfy not only any 
> reasonable definition of "collusion", but should be enough to satisfy 
> any reasonable juror of "obstruction of justice."
> "Treason" comes later.