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Subject: A lightroom question
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
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Subject: A lightroom question
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I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the 
image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the 
images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I 
go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and 
color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does 
anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want 
to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.


-- 
PeterN 

	
From: astigmaticowl <astigmaticowl@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Wednesday, October 25, 2017 at 9:20:58 AM UTC-7, PeterN wrote:
> I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
> I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the 
> image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the 
> images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I 
> go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and 
> color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does 
> anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want 
> to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.
> 
> 
> -- 
> PeterN

I don't quite follow your workflow. In LightRoom, select the picture(s) of interest, go to File,
Export, choose a folder, specify size, file format, and color space. 

You can create a preset for a combination you use frequently. 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 25, 2017, astigmaticowl@gmail.com wrote
(in article<7f122767-d530-4259-95fe-871ca78acf53@googlegroups.com>):

> On Wednesday, October 25, 2017 at 9:20:58 AM UTC-7, PeterN wrote:
> > I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
> > I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the
> > image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the
> > images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I
> > go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and
> > color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does
> > anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want
> > to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.
> >
> >
> > --
> > PeterN
>
> I don't quite follow your workflow.

Few do. ;-)

> In LightRoom, select the picture(s) of
> interest, go to File, Export, choose a folder, specify size, file format, and
> color space.
>
> You can create a preset for a combination you use frequently.

....and you can overwrite the exported file, if/when you make further 
corrections to the same file in LR.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
From: Davoud <star@sky.net>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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PeterN wrote:
> > I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
> > I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the 
> > image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the 
> > images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I 
> > go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and 
> > color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does 
> > anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want 
> > to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.<astigmaticowl@gmail.com> wrote: 
> I don't quite follow your workflow. In LightRoom, select the picture(s) of
> interest, go to File, Export, choose a folder, specify size, file format, and
> color space. 
> 
> You can create a preset for a combination you use frequently.

Correct answer. Especially note the preset.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 25, 2017, PeterN wrote
(in article<osqdji017ak@news3.newsguy.com>):

> I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
> I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the
> image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the
> images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I
> go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and
> color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does
> anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want
> to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.

How are you sending the images, individual, or a folder of images, Dropbox, 
or Adobe CC?

One way to make the change adjustment to any image file. JPEG, PSD, TIFF, 
when using LR is to use the export dialog. Using my method you can readjust 
JPEGs without degradation.

I usually start with a virtual copy in Lightroom and make the 
edits/adjustments. When I think the image is ready for export, I go to the 
export dialog where I have presets for various cloud services such as 
Dropbox, or Adobe CC. I might have a Dropbox “DEMO” folder, or an Adobe 
“Project x” folder, and I can designate sub-folders if I need them. I can 
export adjusted originals, resized, or in the case of JPEGs, resized, and 
comprerssion level.

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyqgy6o1ckr47k/screenshot_206.png>

If I find that the edited image exported to DB, or Adobe CC needs further 
adjustment, I just go to Lightroom and make the new adjustments to the LR 
virtual copy. I then re-export without changing the export file name. A 
dialog/warning window will open advising that the file name already exists. 
You will be given several options; Overwrite, which will overwrite and 
replace the existing TIFF/JPEG ; Skip to skip the existing file; “Use 
Unique Names” which will add a number to the file name giving you two 
copies in the export location.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On 10/25/2017 12:55 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> On Oct 25, 2017, PeterN wrote
> (in article<osqdji017ak@news3.newsguy.com>):
> 
>> I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
>> I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the
>> image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the
>> images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I
>> go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and
>> color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does
>> anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want
>> to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.
> 
> How are you sending the images, individual, or a folder of images, Dropbox,
> or Adobe CC?
> 
> One way to make the change adjustment to any image file. JPEG, PSD, TIFF,
> when using LR is to use the export dialog. Using my method you can readjust
> JPEGs without degradation.
> 
> I usually start with a virtual copy in Lightroom and make the
> edits/adjustments. When I think the image is ready for export, I go to the
> export dialog where I have presets for various cloud services such as
> Dropbox, or Adobe CC. I might have a Dropbox “DEMO” folder, or an Adobe
> “Project x” folder, and I can designate sub-folders if I need them. I can
> export adjusted originals, resized, or in the case of JPEGs, resized, and
> comprerssion level.
> 
> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyqgy6o1ckr47k/screenshot_206.png>
> 
> If I find that the edited image exported to DB, or Adobe CC needs further
> adjustment, I just go to Lightroom and make the new adjustments to the LR
> virtual copy. I then re-export without changing the export file name. A
> dialog/warning window will open advising that the file name already exists.
> You will be given several options; Overwrite, which will overwrite and
> replace the existing TIFF/JPEG ; Skip to skip the existing file; “Use
> Unique Names” which will add a number to the file name giving you two
> copies in the export location.
> 


Thanks.
Some of the time the adjustment can easily be fixed in LR, and sometimes 
the adjustment can only be done in PS. I think you answered my issue for 
JPEG. If I have a JPEG in my LR collection that has been previously 
exported, since later adjustments will be to the LR copy, and not the 
exported JPEG, it will not cause further degradation.
Is my understanding correct?

-- 
PeterN 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 26, 2017, PeterN wrote
(in article<ossodb0278v@news3.newsguy.com>):

> On 10/25/2017 12:55 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> > On Oct 25, 2017, PeterN wrote
> > (in article<osqdji017ak@news3.newsguy.com>):
> >
> > > I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
> > > I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the
> > > image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the
> > > images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I
> > > go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and
> > > color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does
> > > anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want
> > > to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.
> >
> > How are you sending the images, individual, or a folder of images, Dropbox,
> > or Adobe CC?
> >
> > One way to make the change adjustment to any image file. JPEG, PSD, TIFF,
> > when using LR is to use the export dialog. Using my method you can readjust
> > JPEGs without degradation.
> >
> > I usually start with a virtual copy in Lightroom and make the
> > edits/adjustments. When I think the image is ready for export, I go to the
> > export dialog where I have presets for various cloud services such as
> > Dropbox, or Adobe CC. I might have a Dropbox “DEMO” folder, or an Adobe
> > “Project x” folder, and I can designate sub-folders if I need them. I
> > can
> > export adjusted originals, resized, or in the case of JPEGs, resized, and
> > comprerssion level.
> >
> > <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyqgy6o1ckr47k/screenshot_206.png>
> >
> > If I find that the edited image exported to DB, or Adobe CC needs further
> > adjustment, I just go to Lightroom and make the new adjustments to the LR
> > virtual copy. I then re-export without changing the export file name. A
> > dialog/warning window will open advising that the file name already exists.
> > You will be given several options; Overwrite, which will overwrite and
> > replace the existing TIFF/JPEG ; Skip to skip the existing file; “Use
> > Unique Names” which will add a number to the file name giving you two
> > copies in the export location.
>
> Thanks.
> Some of the time the adjustment can easily be fixed in LR, and sometimes
> the adjustment can only be done in PS. I think you answered my issue for
> JPEG. If I have a JPEG in my LR collection that has been previously
> exported, since later adjustments will be to the LR copy, and not the
> exported JPEG, it will not cause further degradation.
> Is my understanding correct?

That is correct. However, you shouldn’t have an LR JPEG copy anyway, you 
don’t need it. Unless you are using Instagram.

Also, if you have made additional edits using PS as an external editor for LR 
you should remember to not merge, or flatten layers or use “Save as”. 
When you have reached the point you wish to return the work to LR just 
“Save”. That way the PS layers are retained in LR, and that layered copy 
can be exported in as any file type you choose in the Export dialog. The LR 
Export function will take care of any conversion to JPEG you don’t have to 
do that in PS with a “Save as”. I don’t usually have JPEGs in LR. If I 
want to do further LR adustments before export I just make a Virtual copy of 
the returned PS edited file and edit that.

So, if your NEF in LR has been made into a Virtual Copy for LR adustment, and 
then sent to PS for advanced edits after those LR adjustments are made. All 
you do is complete your PS work without conversion to JPEG in PS and “Save 
as” just “Save”. Now if it doesn’t matter what the exported file is, 
you do not have the JPEG in LR, it only exists in the export location, and 
that might be in Dropbox, or Adobe CC, or wherever.

If you need to adjust the exported file regardless of type you have options 
to make minor adjustments in LR to the file you exported, and then re-export 
to overwrite the file at the export location, or you can go to the file that 
has been returned to LR and return it to PS by choosing “Edit in PS” and 
in the option dialog select “Edit Original”. That way it will open in PS 
with all the layers intact, ready for you to do whatever evil you care to. 
“Save” once again, and the adjustments will show in the LR version which 
is now ready to re-export to overwrite whatever is in the export location.

....and you still have no JPEG in LR, just the export location.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 26, 2017, Savageduck wrote
(in article<0001HW.1FA22B1B034B2B927000073692CF@news.giganews.com>):

> On Oct 26, 2017, PeterN wrote
> (in article<ossodb0278v@news3.newsguy.com>):
>
> > On 10/25/2017 12:55 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> > > On Oct 25, 2017, PeterN wrote
> > > (in article<osqdji017ak@news3.newsguy.com>):
> > >
> > > > I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
> > > > I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the
> > > > image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the
> > > > images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I
> > > > go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and
> > > > color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does
> > > > anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want
> > > > to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.
> > >
> > > How are you sending the images, individual, or a folder of images, Dropbox,
> > > or Adobe CC?
> > >
> > > One way to make the change adjustment to any image file. JPEG, PSD, TIFF,
> > > when using LR is to use the export dialog. Using my method you can readjust
> > > JPEGs without degradation.
> > >
> > > I usually start with a virtual copy in Lightroom and make the
> > > edits/adjustments. When I think the image is ready for export, I go to the
> > > export dialog where I have presets for various cloud services such as
> > > Dropbox, or Adobe CC. I might have a Dropbox “DEMO” folder, or an Adobe
> > > “Project x” folder, and I can designate sub-folders if I need them. I
> > > can
> > > export adjusted originals, resized, or in the case of JPEGs, resized, and
> > > comprerssion level.
> > >
> > > <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyqgy6o1ckr47k/screenshot_206.png>
> > >
> > > If I find that the edited image exported to DB, or Adobe CC needs further
> > > adjustment, I just go to Lightroom and make the new adjustments to the LR
> > > virtual copy. I then re-export without changing the export file name. A
> > > dialog/warning window will open advising that the file name already exists.
> > > You will be given several options; Overwrite, which will overwrite and
> > > replace the existing TIFF/JPEG ; Skip to skip the existing file; “Use
> > > Unique Names” which will add a number to the file name giving you two
> > > copies in the export location.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Some of the time the adjustment can easily be fixed in LR, and sometimes
> > the adjustment can only be done in PS. I think you answered my issue for
> > JPEG. If I have a JPEG in my LR collection that has been previously
> > exported, since later adjustments will be to the LR copy, and not the
> > exported JPEG, it will not cause further degradation.
> > Is my understanding correct?
>
> That is correct. However, you shouldn’t have an LR JPEG copy anyway, you
> don’t need it. Unless you are using Instagram.
>
> Also, if you have made additional edits using PS as an external editor for LR
> you should remember to not merge, or flatten layers or use “Save as”.
> When you have reached the point you wish to return the work to LR just
> “Save”. That way the PS layers are retained in LR, and that layered copy
> can be exported in as any file type you choose in the Export dialog. The LR
> Export function will take care of any conversion to JPEG you don’t have to
> do that in PS with a “Save as”. I don’t usually have JPEGs in LR. If I
> want to do further LR adustments before export I just make a Virtual copy of
> the returned PS edited file and edit that.
>
> So, if your NEF in LR has been made into a Virtual Copy for LR adustment, and
> then sent to PS for advanced edits after those LR adjustments are made. All
> you do is complete your PS work without conversion to JPEG in PS and “Save
> as” just “Save”. Now if it doesn’t matter what the exported file is,
> you do not have the JPEG in LR, it only exists in the export location, and
> that might be in Dropbox, or Adobe CC, or wherever.
>
> If you need to adjust the exported file regardless of type you have options
> to make minor adjustments in LR to the file you exported, and then re-export
> to overwrite the file at the export location, or you can go to the file that
> has been returned to LR and return it to PS by choosing “Edit in PS” and
> in the option dialog select “Edit Original”. That way it will open in PS
> with all the layers intact, ready for you to do whatever evil you care to.
> “Save” once again, and the adjustments will show in the LR version which
> is now ready to re-export to overwrite whatever is in the export location.
>
> ...and you still have no JPEG in LR, just the export location.

Have you been able to follow any of what I have detailed, regarding 
re-editing both PS and/or LR exported files?

If so, has it helped provide enough guidance to answer your question?

I was just wondering about that.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On 10/28/2017 11:26 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> On Oct 26, 2017, Savageduck wrote
> (in article<0001HW.1FA22B1B034B2B927000073692CF@news.giganews.com>):
> 
>> On Oct 26, 2017, PeterN wrote
>> (in article<ossodb0278v@news3.newsguy.com>):
>>
>>> On 10/25/2017 12:55 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>>>> On Oct 25, 2017, PeterN wrote
>>>> (in article<osqdji017ak@news3.newsguy.com>):
>>>>
>>>>> I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
>>>>> I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the
>>>>> image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the
>>>>> images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I
>>>>> go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and
>>>>> color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does
>>>>> anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want
>>>>> to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.
>>>>
>>>> How are you sending the images, individual, or a folder of images, Dropbox,
>>>> or Adobe CC?
>>>>
>>>> One way to make the change adjustment to any image file. JPEG, PSD, TIFF,
>>>> when using LR is to use the export dialog. Using my method you can readjust
>>>> JPEGs without degradation.
>>>>
>>>> I usually start with a virtual copy in Lightroom and make the
>>>> edits/adjustments. When I think the image is ready for export, I go to the
>>>> export dialog where I have presets for various cloud services such as
>>>> Dropbox, or Adobe CC. I might have a Dropbox “DEMO” folder, or an Adobe
>>>> “Project x” folder, and I can designate sub-folders if I need them. I
>>>> can
>>>> export adjusted originals, resized, or in the case of JPEGs, resized, and
>>>> comprerssion level.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyqgy6o1ckr47k/screenshot_206.png>
>>>>
>>>> If I find that the edited image exported to DB, or Adobe CC needs further
>>>> adjustment, I just go to Lightroom and make the new adjustments to the LR
>>>> virtual copy. I then re-export without changing the export file name. A
>>>> dialog/warning window will open advising that the file name already exists.
>>>> You will be given several options; Overwrite, which will overwrite and
>>>> replace the existing TIFF/JPEG ; Skip to skip the existing file; “Use
>>>> Unique Names” which will add a number to the file name giving you two
>>>> copies in the export location.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> Some of the time the adjustment can easily be fixed in LR, and sometimes
>>> the adjustment can only be done in PS. I think you answered my issue for
>>> JPEG. If I have a JPEG in my LR collection that has been previously
>>> exported, since later adjustments will be to the LR copy, and not the
>>> exported JPEG, it will not cause further degradation.
>>> Is my understanding correct?
>>
>> That is correct. However, you shouldn’t have an LR JPEG copy anyway, you
>> don’t need it. Unless you are using Instagram.
>>
>> Also, if you have made additional edits using PS as an external editor for LR
>> you should remember to not merge, or flatten layers or use “Save as”.
>> When you have reached the point you wish to return the work to LR just
>> “Save”. That way the PS layers are retained in LR, and that layered copy
>> can be exported in as any file type you choose in the Export dialog. The LR
>> Export function will take care of any conversion to JPEG you don’t have to
>> do that in PS with a “Save as”. I don’t usually have JPEGs in LR. If I
>> want to do further LR adustments before export I just make a Virtual copy of
>> the returned PS edited file and edit that.
>>
>> So, if your NEF in LR has been made into a Virtual Copy for LR adustment, and
>> then sent to PS for advanced edits after those LR adjustments are made. All
>> you do is complete your PS work without conversion to JPEG in PS and “Save
>> as” just “Save”. Now if it doesn’t matter what the exported file is,
>> you do not have the JPEG in LR, it only exists in the export location, and
>> that might be in Dropbox, or Adobe CC, or wherever.
>>
>> If you need to adjust the exported file regardless of type you have options
>> to make minor adjustments in LR to the file you exported, and then re-export
>> to overwrite the file at the export location, or you can go to the file that
>> has been returned to LR and return it to PS by choosing “Edit in PS” and
>> in the option dialog select “Edit Original”. That way it will open in PS
>> with all the layers intact, ready for you to do whatever evil you care to.
>> “Save” once again, and the adjustments will show in the LR version which
>> is now ready to re-export to overwrite whatever is in the export location.
>>
>> ...and you still have no JPEG in LR, just the export location.
> 
> Have you been able to follow any of what I have detailed, regarding
> re-editing both PS and/or LR exported files?
> 
> If so, has it helped provide enough guidance to answer your question?
> 
> I was just wondering about that.
> 

Thank you. All of it.

-- 
PeterN 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 29, 2017, PeterN wrote
(in article<ot4s9n02t0d@news6.newsguy.com>):

> On 10/28/2017 11:26 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> > On Oct 26, 2017, Savageduck wrote
> > (in article<0001HW.1FA22B1B034B2B927000073692CF@news.giganews.com>):
> >
> > > On Oct 26, 2017, PeterN wrote
> > > (in article<ossodb0278v@news3.newsguy.com>):
> > >
> > > > On 10/25/2017 12:55 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 25, 2017, PeterN wrote
> > > > > (in article<osqdji017ak@news3.newsguy.com>):
> > > > >
> > > > > > I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
> > > > > > I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the
> > > > > > image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the
> > > > > > images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I
> > > > > > go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and
> > > > > > color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does
> > > > > > anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want
> > > > > > to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.
> > > > >
> > > > > How are you sending the images, individual, or a folder of images,
> > > > > Dropbox,
> > > > > or Adobe CC?
> > > > >
> > > > > One way to make the change adjustment to any image file. JPEG, PSD, TIFF,
> > > > > when using LR is to use the export dialog. Using my method you can
> > > > > readjust
> > > > > JPEGs without degradation.
> > > > >
> > > > > I usually start with a virtual copy in Lightroom and make the
> > > > > edits/adjustments. When I think the image is ready for export, I go to
> > > > > the
> > > > > export dialog where I have presets for various cloud services such as
> > > > > Dropbox, or Adobe CC. I might have a Dropbox “DEMO” folder, or an
> > > > > Adobe
> > > > > “Project x” folder, and I can designate sub-folders if I need them. I
> > > > > can
> > > > > export adjusted originals, resized, or in the case of JPEGs, resized, and
> > > > > comprerssion level.
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyqgy6o1ckr47k/screenshot_206.png>
> > > > >
> > > > > If I find that the edited image exported to DB, or Adobe CC needs further
> > > > > adjustment, I just go to Lightroom and make the new adjustments to the LR
> > > > > virtual copy. I then re-export without changing the export file name. A
> > > > > dialog/warning window will open advising that the file name already
> > > > > exists.
> > > > > You will be given several options; Overwrite, which will overwrite and
> > > > > replace the existing TIFF/JPEG ; Skip to skip the existing file; “Use
> > > > > Unique Names” which will add a number to the file name giving you two
> > > > > copies in the export location.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > Some of the time the adjustment can easily be fixed in LR, and sometimes
> > > > the adjustment can only be done in PS. I think you answered my issue for
> > > > JPEG. If I have a JPEG in my LR collection that has been previously
> > > > exported, since later adjustments will be to the LR copy, and not the
> > > > exported JPEG, it will not cause further degradation.
> > > > Is my understanding correct?
> > >
> > > That is correct. However, you shouldn’t have an LR JPEG copy anyway, you
> > > don’t need it. Unless you are using Instagram.
> > >
> > > Also, if you have made additional edits using PS as an external editor for
> > > LR
> > > you should remember to not merge, or flatten layers or use “Save as”.
> > > When you have reached the point you wish to return the work to LR just
> > > “Save”. That way the PS layers are retained in LR, and that layered
> > > copy
> > > can be exported in as any file type you choose in the Export dialog. The LR
> > > Export function will take care of any conversion to JPEG you don’t have
> > > to
> > > do that in PS with a “Save as”. I don’t usually have JPEGs in LR. If
> > > I
> > > want to do further LR adustments before export I just make a Virtual copy
> > > of
> > > the returned PS edited file and edit that.
> > >
> > > So, if your NEF in LR has been made into a Virtual Copy for LR adustment,
> > > and
> > > then sent to PS for advanced edits after those LR adjustments are made. All
> > > you do is complete your PS work without conversion to JPEG in PS and
> > > “Save
> > > as” just “Save”. Now if it doesn’t matter what the exported file
> > > is,
> > > you do not have the JPEG in LR, it only exists in the export location, and
> > > that might be in Dropbox, or Adobe CC, or wherever.
> > >
> > > If you need to adjust the exported file regardless of type you have options
> > > to make minor adjustments in LR to the file you exported, and then
> > > re-export
> > > to overwrite the file at the export location, or you can go to the file
> > > that
> > > has been returned to LR and return it to PS by choosing “Edit in PS”
> > > and
> > > in the option dialog select “Edit Original”. That way it will open in
> > > PS
> > > with all the layers intact, ready for you to do whatever evil you care to.
> > > “Save” once again, and the adjustments will show in the LR version
> > > which
> > > is now ready to re-export to overwrite whatever is in the export location.
> > >
> > > ...and you still have no JPEG in LR, just the export location.
> >
> > Have you been able to follow any of what I have detailed, regarding
> > re-editing both PS and/or LR exported files?
> >
> > If so, has it helped provide enough guidance to answer your question?
> >
> > I was just wondering about that.
>
> Thank you. All of it.

Great! I know that not everybody uses LR + PS the same way. It is just that I 
have found the method I have detailed above, the one which works best for me, 
and I hoped that you would find it useful. Perhaps even find a way to work it 
into your workflow.

I have a confession, ever since I started shooting RAW+JPEG to get my SOOC 
Fujifilm JPEGs, I have some JPEGs in LR. However they are not the result of 
processing and/or editing RAW files.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On 10/29/2017 12:12 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2017, PeterN wrote
> (in article<ot4s9n02t0d@news6.newsguy.com>):
> 
>> On 10/28/2017 11:26 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>>> On Oct 26, 2017, Savageduck wrote
>>> (in article<0001HW.1FA22B1B034B2B927000073692CF@news.giganews.com>):
>>>
>>>> On Oct 26, 2017, PeterN wrote
>>>> (in article<ossodb0278v@news3.newsguy.com>):
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/25/2017 12:55 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>>>>>> On Oct 25, 2017, PeterN wrote
>>>>>> (in article<osqdji017ak@news3.newsguy.com>):
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I use Lightroom CC Classic and Photoshop CC.
>>>>>>> I send images to various people and competitions. Before I send the
>>>>>>> image I place it in a dedicated folder. Sometimes, while reviewing the
>>>>>>> images, I see something that should be changed. If it is a JPEG image I
>>>>>>> go back to the original, make the change, then make requisite size and
>>>>>>> color space changes, and re-save. All of that takes a lot of time. Does
>>>>>>> anyone know how to directly save the change using only LR? I don't want
>>>>>>> to do this on JPEG files, but only on tiff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How are you sending the images, individual, or a folder of images,
>>>>>> Dropbox,
>>>>>> or Adobe CC?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One way to make the change adjustment to any image file. JPEG, PSD, TIFF,
>>>>>> when using LR is to use the export dialog. Using my method you can
>>>>>> readjust
>>>>>> JPEGs without degradation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I usually start with a virtual copy in Lightroom and make the
>>>>>> edits/adjustments. When I think the image is ready for export, I go to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> export dialog where I have presets for various cloud services such as
>>>>>> Dropbox, or Adobe CC. I might have a Dropbox “DEMO” folder, or an
>>>>>> Adobe
>>>>>> “Project x” folder, and I can designate sub-folders if I need them. I
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> export adjusted originals, resized, or in the case of JPEGs, resized, and
>>>>>> comprerssion level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyqgy6o1ckr47k/screenshot_206.png>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I find that the edited image exported to DB, or Adobe CC needs further
>>>>>> adjustment, I just go to Lightroom and make the new adjustments to the LR
>>>>>> virtual copy. I then re-export without changing the export file name. A
>>>>>> dialog/warning window will open advising that the file name already
>>>>>> exists.
>>>>>> You will be given several options; Overwrite, which will overwrite and
>>>>>> replace the existing TIFF/JPEG ; Skip to skip the existing file; “Use
>>>>>> Unique Names” which will add a number to the file name giving you two
>>>>>> copies in the export location.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> Some of the time the adjustment can easily be fixed in LR, and sometimes
>>>>> the adjustment can only be done in PS. I think you answered my issue for
>>>>> JPEG. If I have a JPEG in my LR collection that has been previously
>>>>> exported, since later adjustments will be to the LR copy, and not the
>>>>> exported JPEG, it will not cause further degradation.
>>>>> Is my understanding correct?
>>>>
>>>> That is correct. However, you shouldn’t have an LR JPEG copy anyway, you
>>>> don’t need it. Unless you are using Instagram.
>>>>
>>>> Also, if you have made additional edits using PS as an external editor for
>>>> LR
>>>> you should remember to not merge, or flatten layers or use “Save as”.
>>>> When you have reached the point you wish to return the work to LR just
>>>> “Save”. That way the PS layers are retained in LR, and that layered
>>>> copy
>>>> can be exported in as any file type you choose in the Export dialog. The LR
>>>> Export function will take care of any conversion to JPEG you don’t have
>>>> to
>>>> do that in PS with a “Save as”. I don’t usually have JPEGs in LR. If
>>>> I
>>>> want to do further LR adustments before export I just make a Virtual copy
>>>> of
>>>> the returned PS edited file and edit that.
>>>>
>>>> So, if your NEF in LR has been made into a Virtual Copy for LR adustment,
>>>> and
>>>> then sent to PS for advanced edits after those LR adjustments are made. All
>>>> you do is complete your PS work without conversion to JPEG in PS and
>>>> “Save
>>>> as” just “Save”. Now if it doesn’t matter what the exported file
>>>> is,
>>>> you do not have the JPEG in LR, it only exists in the export location, and
>>>> that might be in Dropbox, or Adobe CC, or wherever.
>>>>
>>>> If you need to adjust the exported file regardless of type you have options
>>>> to make minor adjustments in LR to the file you exported, and then
>>>> re-export
>>>> to overwrite the file at the export location, or you can go to the file
>>>> that
>>>> has been returned to LR and return it to PS by choosing “Edit in PS”
>>>> and
>>>> in the option dialog select “Edit Original”. That way it will open in
>>>> PS
>>>> with all the layers intact, ready for you to do whatever evil you care to.
>>>> “Save” once again, and the adjustments will show in the LR version
>>>> which
>>>> is now ready to re-export to overwrite whatever is in the export location.
>>>>
>>>> ...and you still have no JPEG in LR, just the export location.
>>>
>>> Have you been able to follow any of what I have detailed, regarding
>>> re-editing both PS and/or LR exported files?
>>>
>>> If so, has it helped provide enough guidance to answer your question?
>>>
>>> I was just wondering about that.
>>
>> Thank you. All of it.
> 
> Great! I know that not everybody uses LR + PS the same way. It is just that I
> have found the method I have detailed above, the one which works best for me,
> and I hoped that you would find it useful. Perhaps even find a way to work it
> into your workflow.
> 
> I have a confession, ever since I started shooting RAW+JPEG to get my SOOC
> Fujifilm JPEGs, I have some JPEGs in LR. However they are not the result of
> processing and/or editing RAW files.
> 

I would think that in most cases, editing a JPEG file in LR should not 
make any difference, because you are only changing the instructions, not 
working on the file itself. No matter how many times you edit the file, 
there will only be one change,and that will be when you save it.
each additional edit will be on another copy of the file.

<https://havecamerawilltravel.com/lightroom/jpgs-lightroom/>

-- 
PeterN 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
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On Oct 29, 2017, PeterN wrote
(in article<ot56fi0g5@news6.newsguy.com>):

> On 10/29/2017 12:12 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 2017, PeterN wrote
> > (in article<ot4s9n02t0d@news6.newsguy.com>):
> >
> > > On 10/28/2017 11:26 PM, Savageduck wrote:

<<Snipped understood stuff>>

> > > >
> > > > Have you been able to follow any of what I have detailed, regarding
> > > > re-editing both PS and/or LR exported files?
> > > >
> > > > If so, has it helped provide enough guidance to answer your question?
> > > >
> > > > I was just wondering about that.
> > >
> > > Thank you. All of it.
> >
> > Great! I know that not everybody uses LR + PS the same way. It is just that
> > I have found the method I have detailed above, the one which works best for
> > me, and I hoped that you would find it useful. Perhaps even find a way to work
> > it into your workflow.
> >
> > I have a confession, ever since I started shooting RAW+JPEG to get my SOOC
> > Fujifilm JPEGs, I have some JPEGs in LR. However they are not the result of
> > processing and/or editing RAW files.
>
> I would think that in most cases, editing a JPEG file in LR should not
> make any difference, because you are only changing the instructions, not
> working on the file itself. No matter how many times you edit the file,
> there will only be one change,and that will be when you save it.
> each additional edit will be on another copy of the file.
>
> <https://havecamerawilltravel.com/lightroom/jpgs-lightroom/>

Damn! That is one badly designed web site. However, he has some valid 
information.

Just to clarify things, if you are going to isolate JPEG editing to LR then 
you will have a true non-destructive workflow, especially if you only edit LR 
Virtual copies, but once you leave the LR environment all bets are off. An 
exported file converted to JPEG, or from an LR edited JPEG original which has 
been resized and subject to compression is undoubtably lossy. That is one 
reason to follow the method I detailed for re-editing exported files JPEG, or 
RAW/TIFF/PSD.

So, LR, or RAW, always start on a LR Virtual copy.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
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In article<0001HW.1FA660C000CAAEAD7000012602CF@news.giganews.com>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> > I would think that in most cases, editing a JPEG file in LR should not
> > make any difference, because you are only changing the instructions, not
> > working on the file itself. No matter how many times you edit the file,
> > there will only be one change,and that will be when you save it.
> > each additional edit will be on another copy of the file.
> >
> > <https://havecamerawilltravel.com/lightroom/jpgs-lightroom/>
> 
> Damn! That is one badly designed web site. However, he has some valid 
> information.

it's ugly, but it works just fine. 

what problems are you seeing? 

	
From: Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
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"PeterN" <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net> wrote

| I would think that in most cases, editing a JPEG file in LR should not
| make any difference, because you are only changing the instructions, not
| working on the file itself. No matter how many times you edit the file,
| there will only be one change,and that will be when you save it.
| each additional edit will be on another copy of the file.
|
| <https://havecamerawilltravel.com/lightroom/jpgs-lightroom/>
|

    He's a bit evasive, focussing on how you can
make edits and save them as memory in LR. What
you say matches his description. That's fine, but if
you edit a JPG you eventually have to save it again
and that's going to degrade it. No way around that.
"Only one change" is one change too many if it wasn't
necessary. If you work with them in LR as
TIFs and never deal with JPG except to save for
some target that requires JPG, isn't that the best
option?
  In other words, why not RAW -> TIF  and then
only save to JPG if you have to for the sake of size
or recipient limitations? JPG shouldn't be thought of
as a storage format. It's only used for photos
because it's universal and most people don't edit.
It's *not* used because it's an appropriate format. 

	
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In article <ot5giq$1mtk$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mayayana<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> 
> | I would think that in most cases, editing a JPEG file in LR should not
> | make any difference, because you are only changing the instructions, not
> | working on the file itself. No matter how many times you edit the file,
> | there will only be one change,and that will be when you save it.
> | each additional edit will be on another copy of the file.
> |
> | <https://havecamerawilltravel.com/lightroom/jpgs-lightroom/>
> |
> 
>     He's a bit evasive, focussing on how you can
> make edits and save them as memory in LR. What
> you say matches his description. That's fine, but if
> you edit a JPG you eventually have to save it again
> and that's going to degrade it. No way around that.
> "Only one change" is one change too many if it wasn't
> necessary. If you work with them in LR as
> TIFs and never deal with JPG except to save for
> some target that requires JPG, isn't that the best
> option?

no. raw is the best option.

>   In other words, why not RAW -> TIF  and then
> only save to JPG if you have to for the sake of size
> or recipient limitations? JPG shouldn't be thought of
> as a storage format. It's only used for photos
> because it's universal and most people don't edit.
> It's *not* used because it's an appropriate format.

tiff is not the best choice because tiff is 'cooked'. 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 29, 2017, Mayayana wrote
(in article <ot5giq$1mtk$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

> "PeterN"<"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>  wrote
>
> > I would think that in most cases, editing a JPEG file in LR should not
> > make any difference, because you are only changing the instructions, not
> > working on the file itself. No matter how many times you edit the file,
> > there will only be one change,and that will be when you save it.
> > each additional edit will be on another copy of the file.
> >
> > <https://havecamerawilltravel.com/lightroom/jpgs-lightroom/>
>
> He's a bit evasive, focussing on how you can make edits and save them as memory in LR. What
> you say matches his description. That's fine, but if you edit a JPG you eventually have to save it
again
> and that's going to degrade it. No way around that. "Only one change" is one change too many if it
wasn't
> necessary. If you work with them in LR as TIFs and never deal with JPG except to save for
> some target that requires JPG, isn't that the best option?

Do you use anything Adobe?

The first thing is to understand how LR works. If you are working with JPEG 
original files in LR all adjustments/edits are not applied directly to the 
original, but to XMP sidecar files. The JPEG is not altered. The first thing 
most sensible LR users will do is create a virtual copy and make all edits 
and adjustments to that. There is no reason to save an adjusted file back to 
LR as a JPEG, so there is no saving it again to degrade the file regardless 
of whether or not you are editing a JPEG or a RAW file. If you need an 
edited/adjusted JPEG for sharing, or some other purpose you can get it via 
the LR export dialog. If it interests you at all, I suggest you read some of 
the other information in this thread.
>
> In other words, why not RAW ->  TIF and then only save to JPG if you have to for the sake of size
> or recipient limitations?

There is no need to save to JPEG. When I had a RAW only workflow all LR edits 
were made to an LR Virtual copy of the RAW file. If I needed to use a 
process, or technique not available to LR I use either PS, or another plug-in 
as an external editor. The result is returned with adjustments to LR as a 
TIFF, or a PSD. If I need to share that image I export to email, sharing 
service, or cloud service, and all resizing and JPEG compression is done via 
the LR export dialog, with the JPEG created in the export location. The 
compressed, resized JPEG never goes back to LR.

Since I started shooting RAW+JPEG so that I could take advantage of the very 
good Fujifilm SOOC JPEGS with their film emulations I have RAW files paired 
with a JPEG original. If I need to adjust one of those JPEG originals, that 
adjustment is made to an LR Virtual copy. There is never and 
adjusted/compressed JPEG to be found in my copy of LR. If I need to send the 
LR adjusted virtual copy of the JPEG to PS or another external editor, it 
edits a copy of the copy with LR adjustments. When the external editor is 
done a “Save as” is not used, just a “Save” or an “Apply” to 
retun a TIFF or PSD to LR. Again, if I need a resized JPEG to share, I go to 
the LR export dialog, so there is never a resized JPEG in my LR.

> JPG shouldn't be thought of as a storage format. It's only used for photos
> because it's universal and most people don't edit. It's *not* used because it's an appropriate
format.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
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"Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote

| The first thing is to understand how LR works. If you are working with 
JPEG
| original files in LR all adjustments/edits are not applied directly to the
| original, but to XMP sidecar files. The JPEG is not altered. The first 
thing
| most sensible LR users will do is create a virtual copy and make all edits
| and adjustments to that.

  I understand. It's a clever design. I'm just pointing
out that in that scenario there's still the lossy
original JPG and there's still loss in the final save.
So if one is going to work with JPGs then it seems a
good design.

  I think we're saying the same thing. You work in
RAW or TIF, then export to JPG only if necessary. I'm just
pointing out that it makes sense to store in non-lossy
formats in the first place, either RAW or something
like TIF, when it comes out of RAW. And if
it's coming from JPG? Why not convert it anyway?
That's basically what LR is doing -- saving some
kind of backup bitmap image. By saving in TIF you
can cut out the middleman and don't need to be
limited to LR. And you can also have multiple edits
as multiple non-lossy files. Like "beach.tif",
"beach without uncle fred.tif", "beach2.tif",
"beach3.tif", etc. And any of those can be worked
on further. Maybe that's not relevant to you. I
like to save whatever I do as a non-lossy file, in
case I later want to proceed from that point to
do something else.

   But it's true that I don't use LR. I just use the
basic computer file system. If you prefer to have
LR keep track of your images then letting it handle
bitmap backups may be convenient. 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
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Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 29, 2017, Mayayana wrote
(in article <ot5lh5$1tq5$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

> "Savageduck"<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>  wrote
>
> > The first thing is to understand how LR works. If you are working with
> JPEG
> > original files in LR all adjustments/edits are not applied directly to the
> > original, but to XMP sidecar files. The JPEG is not altered. The first
> thing
> > most sensible LR users will do is create a virtual copy and make all edits
> > and adjustments to that.
>
> I understand. It's a clever design. I'm just pointing out that in that scenario there's still the
lossy
> original JPG and there's still loss in the final save. So if one is going to work with JPGs then
it seems a
> good design.

The original JPEG has lost all it is ever going to lose, there is no "final 
save” in LR.
>
> I think we're saying the same thing. You work in RAW or TIF, then export to JPG only if necessary.

Not quite, that was what I did when I used a RAW only workflow. Now that I am 
shooting a RAW+JPEG workflow with my Fujifilm cameras, if I have to make 
adjustments to the SOOC JPEG, I do so to an LR Virtual copy. If I export any 
image it is done via the LR export dialog and not saved back to LR.

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/lk66j5u1z390ipx/screenshot_208.png>
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/dour4pztp0o8svn/screenshot_209.png>

....and the resized exported result:
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/xwvni0r2ygaymui/DSCF4910.jpg>

> I'm just pointing out that it makes sense to store in non-lossy formats in the first place, either
RAW or something
> like TIF, when it comes out of RAW. And if it's coming from JPG? Why not convert it anyway?

That defeats the purpose of having SOOC JPEGs which might have an in-camera 
film emulation applied, the RAW file will be just a RAW file, and available 
for other adjustment.

>
> That's basically what LR is doing -- saving some kind of backup bitmap image.

Nope, an XMP sidecar file is not some kind of backup bitmap image. It is a 
set of instructions detailing the edits and adjustments.

<http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp.html>
<http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/tag/xmp-sidecar-files>

> By saving in TIF you can cut out the middleman and don't need to be limited to LR. And you can
also have multiple edits
> as multiple non-lossy files. Like "beach.tif”, "beach without uncle fred.tif", "beach2.tif”,
"beach3.tif", etc. And any of those can be worked
> on further. Maybe that's not relevant to you. I like to save whatever I do as a non-lossy file, in
case I later want to proceed from that point to do 
something else.

My originals, be they RAW or JPEG are never molested, and I can have as many 
edits or variations of any original merely by making as many virtual copies 
as I desire.
>
> But it's true that I don't use LR. I just use the basic computer file system. If you prefer to have
> LR keep track of your images then letting it handle bitmap backups may be convenient.

There are no bitmap backups.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
From: Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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From: "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
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Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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"Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote

| The original JPEG has lost all it is ever going to lose, there is no 
"final
| save" in LR.

  You take a picture as JPG. That's loss #1.
You then edit it, say 5 times. Each time it's
saved in LR and there's no loss to the original.
That's good. LR is saving the bitmap image
along with a history of changes you've made.
Each time you work on it, you're really working
on the bitmap and LR is saving that, along with
the edit history data. What's different
is that LR is hiding that complication and you
don't need to keep track of various saved files.
LR is doing that for you. But once you decide
to export it as an edited image in JPG that's
loss #2. You can't edit the image and then save
a new image as JPG without a second loss. You
can do 5 lossless edits inside LR, but the final
save will be lossy.

  I don't mean to complicate things. It's just
that most people are not familiar with the differences
in file formats, so I think it's worth reiterating
that JPG is lossy. Otherwise it's very easy to drop
out data unnecessarily. The LR feature is nice, but
it's still a process that drops out data twice if you
edit the photo.

  So you take a JPG, put it into LR, edit as you
like, and eventually save a version as JPG. I take
a photo as JPG, save my first edit as BMP or TIF,
then save all other versions the same way. I end
up with a folder containing numerous versions of
the photo. You end up with a history in LR. If I
edit it 5 times and maybe save 5 versions there's
no loss. If necessary I might eventually convert
one of those to JPG to send to someone.

  We both then end up with 2 lossy steps: The original
JPG photo and the final JPG save of an edited image.
The only difference is that LR is managing the file
storage for you so you don't need to save TIFs or
maintain systematic file storage.

| > That's basically what LR is doing -- saving some kind of backup bitmap 
image.
|
| Nope, an XMP sidecar file is not some kind of backup bitmap image. It is a
| set of instructions detailing the edits and adjustments.
|
| <http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp.html>
| <http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/tag/xmp-sidecar-files>
|

   We discussed this once before. It's all bitmaps.
Any raster image is essentially a bitmap. A JPG
is a compressed bitmap with some data dropped
out. A TIF is usually just a compressed bitmap.
A GIF is a bitmap. A PNG is a bitmap. Those are
all just different ways to store the image data.
Proprietary formats, like Paint Shop Pro's PSP
or the PS PSD, store the image plus editing
history, unmerged layers, etc. But the image is
still going to be a bitmap -- a grid of pixel color
values. That's what goes to the printer or the
computer screen. That's what you're applying filters,
sharpening, etc to. Those are all just mathematical
formulae applied to bitmaps. Increase the pixel
values and you've lightened. Increase the difference
between contiguous pixels and you've sharpened.
Of course it gets very sophisticated when it can do
things like remove a chain link fence from the image,
but it's still essentially the same thing. 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 29, 2017, Mayayana wrote
(in article <ot5rs9$60q$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

> "Savageduck"<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>  wrote
>
> > The original JPEG has lost all it is ever going to lose, there is no
> "final
> > save" in LR.
>
> You take a picture as JPG.

Yup! That sets your base original.

> That's loss #1.

No loss, it is converted in-camera from the RAW data to an original JPEG 
which is imported into LR.
>
> You then edit it, say 5 times.

You can edit a 100 virtual copies, you are not editing the originally 
imported JPEG.

> Each time it’s saved in LR and there's no loss to the original.

It isn’t saved after each edit, each edit is written to XMP sidecar files.
>
> That's good. LR is saving the bitmap image along with a history of changes you've made.

Nope. That is not how LR works with virtual copies. You are speculating on 
how LR works without any actual knowledge, or experience. Don’t project 
your ignorance into a thread where you are just guessing. I have been using 
LR since the first beta.
>
> Each time you work on it, you're really working on the bitmap and LR is saving that, along with
the edit history data.

Nope.

> What's different is that LR is hiding that complication and you don't need to keep track of
various saved files.

You are guessing that is what is happening, but you are wrong.
>
> LR is doing that for you. But once you decide to export it as an edited image in JPG that’s loss
#2. You can't edit the image and then save a new image as 
JPG without a second loss. You can do 5 lossless edits inside LR, but the 
final save will be lossy.

Here you are close. The edited image is exported, and the export criterea for 
resizing, file type, compression if the file type is lossy. If it is a JPEG 
the loss will occur with the file at the export location. That file never 
makes it back to LR, and other than posting it using whatever method to 
recipients it will not be present on LR for any further editing, the degree 
of loss is deliberate and planned.
>
> I don't mean to complicate things. It's just that most people are not familiar with the differences
> in file formats, so I think it's worth reiterating that JPG is lossy.

Why do you think that I might not be familiar with JPEGs? I certainly am well 
aware that JPG is a lossy format.

> Otherwise it's very easy to drop out data unnecessarily. The LR feature is nice, but
> it's still a process that drops out data twice if you edit the photo.

Again, your knowledge and understanding of the function of LR is quite wrong.

> So you take a JPG, put it into LR, edit as you like, and eventually save a version as JPG.

No, I edit a virtual copy of the JPEG, or RAW file as I like. I don’t save 
a version as a JPEG within LR. However, if I choose to export an edited 
version of that JPEG, or RAW file I can export it to the export location of 
my choice, as the file type of my choice () all without reintroducing it into 
LR.

> I take a photo as JPG, save my first edit as BMP or TIF, then save all other versions the same
way. I end
> up with a folder containing numerous versions of the photo. You end up with a history in LR. If I
edit it 5 times and maybe save 5 versions there’s no 
loss. If necessary I might eventually convert one of those to JPG to send to 
someone.

Well if that works for you, go ahead. You are probably never going to use any 
Adobe applications, so I don’t see how you have done anything to solve 
Peter’s original LR issue, or if you even understood it.
>
> We both then end up with 2 lossy steps: The original JPG photo and the final JPG save of an edited
image.
> The only difference is that LR is managing the file storage for you so you don't need to save TIFs
or
> maintain systematic file storage.

You really don’t understand anything about LR.

>
> > > That's basically what LR is doing -- saving some kind of backup bitmap
> image.
> >
> > Nope, an XMP sidecar file is not some kind of backup bitmap image. It is a
> > set of instructions detailing the edits and adjustments.
> >
> > <http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp.html>
> > <http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/tag/xmp-sidecar-files>
>
> We discussed this once before. It's all bitmaps. Any raster image is essentially a bitmap. A JPG
> is a compressed bitmap with some data dropped out. A TIF is usually just a compressed bitmap.
> A GIF is a bitmap. A PNG is a bitmap. Those are all just different ways to store the image data.
> Proprietary formats, like Paint Shop Pro's PSP or the PS PSD, store the image plus editing
> history, unmerged layers, etc. But the image is still going to be a bitmap -- a grid of pixel color
> values. That's what goes to the printer or the computer screen. That's what you're applying
filters,
> sharpening, etc to. Those are all just mathematical formulae applied to bitmaps. Increase the pixel
> values and you've lightened. Increase the difference between contiguous pixels and you've
sharpened.
> Of course it gets very sophisticated when it can do things like remove a chain link fence from the
image,
> but it's still essentially the same thing.

You are obviously trapped in bitmap theory.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
From: John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Full headers:
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From: John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:12:19 -0700
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On 10/29/17   PDT 7:06 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2017, Mayayana wrote
> (in article <ot5rs9$60q$1@gioia.aioe.org>):
> 
>> "Savageduck"<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>  wrote
>>
>>> The original JPEG has lost all it is ever going to lose, there is no
>> "final
>>> save" in LR.
>>
>> You take a picture as JPG.
> 
> Yup! That sets your base original.
> 
>> That's loss #1.
> 
> No loss, it is converted in-camera from the RAW data to an original JPEG
> which is imported into LR.
>>
>> You then edit it, say 5 times.
> 
> You can edit a 100 virtual copies, you are not editing the originally
> imported JPEG.
> 
>> Each time it’s saved in LR and there's no loss to the original.
> 
> It isn’t saved after each edit, each edit is written to XMP sidecar files.
>>
>> That's good. LR is saving the bitmap image along with a history of changes you've made.
> 
> Nope. That is not how LR works with virtual copies. You are speculating on
> how LR works without any actual knowledge, or experience. Don’t project
> your ignorance into a thread where you are just guessing. I have been using
> LR since the first beta.
>>
>> Each time you work on it, you're really working on the bitmap and LR is saving that, along with
the edit history data.
> 
> Nope.
> 
>> What's different is that LR is hiding that complication and you don't need to keep track of
various saved files.
> 
> You are guessing that is what is happening, but you are wrong.
>>
>> LR is doing that for you. But once you decide to export it as an edited image in JPG that’s
loss #2. You can't edit the image and then save a new image as
> JPG without a second loss. You can do 5 lossless edits inside LR, but the
> final save will be lossy.
> 
> Here you are close. The edited image is exported, and the export criterea for
> resizing, file type, compression if the file type is lossy. If it is a JPEG
> the loss will occur with the file at the export location. That file never
> makes it back to LR, and other than posting it using whatever method to
> recipients it will not be present on LR for any further editing, the degree
> of loss is deliberate and planned.
>>
>> I don't mean to complicate things. It's just that most people are not familiar with the
differences
>> in file formats, so I think it's worth reiterating that JPG is lossy.
> 
> Why do you think that I might not be familiar with JPEGs? I certainly am well
> aware that JPG is a lossy format.
> 
>> Otherwise it's very easy to drop out data unnecessarily. The LR feature is nice, but
>> it's still a process that drops out data twice if you edit the photo.
> 
> Again, your knowledge and understanding of the function of LR is quite wrong.
> 
>> So you take a JPG, put it into LR, edit as you like, and eventually save a version as JPG.
> 
> No, I edit a virtual copy of the JPEG, or RAW file as I like. I don’t save
> a version as a JPEG within LR. However, if I choose to export an edited
> version of that JPEG, or RAW file I can export it to the export location of
> my choice, as the file type of my choice () all without reintroducing it into
> LR.
> 
>> I take a photo as JPG, save my first edit as BMP or TIF, then save all other versions the same
way. I end
>> up with a folder containing numerous versions of the photo. You end up with a history in LR. If I
edit it 5 times and maybe save 5 versions there’s no
> loss. If necessary I might eventually convert one of those to JPG to send to
> someone.
> 
> Well if that works for you, go ahead. You are probably never going to use any
> Adobe applications, so I don’t see how you have done anything to solve
> Peter’s original LR issue, or if you even understood it.
>>
>> We both then end up with 2 lossy steps: The original JPG photo and the final JPG save of an
edited image.
>> The only difference is that LR is managing the file storage for you so you don't need to save
TIFs or
>> maintain systematic file storage.
> 
> You really don’t understand anything about LR.
> 
>>
>>>> That's basically what LR is doing -- saving some kind of backup bitmap
>> image.
>>>
>>> Nope, an XMP sidecar file is not some kind of backup bitmap image. It is a
>>> set of instructions detailing the edits and adjustments.
>>>
>>> <http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp.html>
>>> <http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/tag/xmp-sidecar-files>
>>
>> We discussed this once before. It's all bitmaps. Any raster image is essentially a bitmap. A JPG
>> is a compressed bitmap with some data dropped out. A TIF is usually just a compressed bitmap.
>> A GIF is a bitmap. A PNG is a bitmap. Those are all just different ways to store the image data.
>> Proprietary formats, like Paint Shop Pro's PSP or the PS PSD, store the image plus editing
>> history, unmerged layers, etc. But the image is still going to be a bitmap -- a grid of pixel
color
>> values. That's what goes to the printer or the computer screen. That's what you're applying
filters,
>> sharpening, etc to. Those are all just mathematical formulae applied to bitmaps. Increase the
pixel
>> values and you've lightened. Increase the difference between contiguous pixels and you've
sharpened.
>> Of course it gets very sophisticated when it can do things like remove a chain link fence from
the image,
>> but it's still essentially the same thing.
> 
> You are obviously trapped in bitmap theory.
> 
Listen to The Duck. He knows whereof he speaks. Me, I worked only on V2 
and 3 of LR..... 

	
From: Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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From: "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:52:14 -0400
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"John McWilliams"<jpmcw@comcast.net> wrote

>
Listen to The Duck. He knows whereof he speaks. Me, I worked only on V2
and 3 of LR.....
>

What is it I said that you disagree with?

That saving out of LR to JPG is lossy?

That images coming from the camera as JPG
have lost data?

That a JPG is actually a bitmap stored in a
compressed file format?

Did you actually read what I wrote? I was never
questioning SD's methods or his explanations
about LR.

  I've agreed over and over that the process LR
uses can be used to edit the image without loss,
inside LR. All I'm saying is that it's important to
recognize that LR is not somehow magically
transcending the limitations of JPG. It's merely
storing data about edits. 

	
From: John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Full headers:
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From: John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 14:25:26 -0700
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On 10/30/17   PDT 5:52 AM, Mayayana wrote:
> "John McWilliams"<jpmcw@comcast.net> wrote
> 
>>
> Listen to The Duck. He knows whereof he speaks. Me, I worked only on V2
> and 3 of LR.....
>>
> 
> What is it I said that you disagree with?

The same corrections that The Duck made.
> 
> That saving out of LR to JPG is lossy?
> 
> That images coming from the camera as JPG
> have lost data?
> 
> That a JPG is actually a bitmap stored in a
> compressed file format?
> 
> Did you actually read what I wrote? I was never
> questioning SD's methods or his explanations
> about LR.
> 
>    I've agreed over and over that the process LR
> uses can be used to edit the image without loss,
> inside LR. All I'm saying is that it's important to
> recognize that LR is not somehow magically
> transcending the limitations of JPG. It's merely
> storing data about edits.

I'm pretty sure that he didn't assert the above paragraph. 

	
From: Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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From: "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 18:26:14 -0400
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"John McWilliams"<jpmcw@comcast.net> wrote

| > What is it I said that you disagree with?
|
| The same corrections that The Duck made.

  He didn't make corrections. He misunderstood me.
You only added to the confusion, never really
reading what I'd written. 

	
From: John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Full headers:
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From: John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:51:37 -0700
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On 11/1/17   PDT 3:26 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "John McWilliams"<jpmcw@comcast.net> wrote
> 
> | > What is it I said that you disagree with?
> |
> | The same corrections that The Duck made.
> 
>    He didn't make corrections. He misunderstood me.
> You only added to the confusion, never really
> reading what I'd written.

Yes, indeed. All the Duck's fault!!

:)

And mine for "adding" to the jumble. 

	
From: Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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From: "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:34:42 -0400
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"John McWilliams"<jpmcw@comcast.net> wrote

| Yes, indeed. All the Duck's fault!!
|

  No. Don't put words in my mouth. You're just
starting a fight where there is none, like a
teenager who thinks he's standing up for his
clique.... Never bothering to even read what
the thread was about. 

	
From: Noons <wizofoz2k@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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From: Noons <wizofoz2k@yahoo.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.photography,rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 20:13:07 +1100
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On 4/11/2017 9:34 @wiz, Mayayana wrote:
> "John McWilliams"<jpmcw@comcast.net> wrote
> 
> | Yes, indeed. All the Duck's fault!!
> |
> 
>    No. Don't put words in my mouth. You're just
> starting a fight where there is none, like a
> teenager who thinks he's standing up for his
> clique.... Never bothering to even read what
> the thread was about.
> 
> 


Typical F...wit-McWilliams... 

	
From: Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:06:09 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On Oct 29, 2017, Mayayana wrote
>(in article <ot5rs9$60q$1@gioia.aioe.org>):
>
>> "Savageduck"<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>  wrote
>>
>> > The original JPEG has lost all it is ever going to lose, there is no
>> "final
>> > save" in LR.
>>
>> You take a picture as JPG.
>
>Yup! That sets your base original.
>
>> That's loss #1.
>
>No loss, it is converted in-camera from the RAW data to an original JPEG 
>which is imported into LR.
>>
>> You then edit it, say 5 times.
>
>You can edit a 100 virtual copies, you are not editing the originally 
>imported JPEG.
>
>> Each time it’s saved in LR and there's no loss to the original.
>
>It isn’t saved after each edit, each edit is written to XMP sidecar files.
>>
>> That's good. LR is saving the bitmap image along with a history of changes you've made.

This is the area where Mayayana's understanding goes off the rails.

When you load in amge into LR the first thing LR does is create a
screen display which (according to the preference you have selected)
is a more compact and less precise version of the image in the file.
It might be less precise but it's usually more than good enough to
enable you see what the effects of your edits may be.

Once you start editing each setting is saved in the XMP file. It's not
the effect of each edit that is saved: it's the instructions and
settings for each edit that is saved. The original file is not
affected by any of this: only the simplified version you see in the
screen. At the end of the edit session the XMP file has accumulated a
long list of edit data.

When you leave LR the original image file remains untouched. If you
come back again later the list of edits is reloaded and works on the
simplified version of the image file to show you on the screen where
you got to last time.

The XMP file only gets to work on the original image file only when
you go to export it in some way. Either by Saving the file, or Save As
or printing. The the XMP gets to work on the original image file (in
full precision) and creates whatever is required for export.

You can if you are so inclined edit a JPG and eventually save it on
top of itself but it is better to (for instance) as I do save JPGs in
a subfolder so that there is no confusion.

This way you can go on editing and saving JPGs until you are blue in
the face without accumulating corruptions of the original JPG.

>
>Nope. That is not how LR works with virtual copies. You are speculating on 
>how LR works without any actual knowledge, or experience. Don’t project 
>your ignorance into a thread where you are just guessing. I have been using 
>LR since the first beta.
>>
>> Each time you work on it, you're really working on the bitmap and LR is saving that, along with
the edit history data.
>
>Nope.
>
>> What's different is that LR is hiding that complication and you don't need to keep track of
various saved files.
>
>You are guessing that is what is happening, but you are wrong.
>>
>> LR is doing that for you. But once you decide to export it as an edited image in JPG that’s
loss #2. You can't edit the image and then save a new image as 
>JPG without a second loss. You can do 5 lossless edits inside LR, but the 
>final save will be lossy.
>
>Here you are close. The edited image is exported, and the export criterea for 
>resizing, file type, compression if the file type is lossy. If it is a JPEG 
>the loss will occur with the file at the export location. That file never 
>makes it back to LR, and other than posting it using whatever method to 
>recipients it will not be present on LR for any further editing, the degree 
>of loss is deliberate and planned.
>>
>> I don't mean to complicate things. It's just that most people are not familiar with the
differences
>> in file formats, so I think it's worth reiterating that JPG is lossy.
>
>Why do you think that I might not be familiar with JPEGs? I certainly am well 
>aware that JPG is a lossy format.
>
>> Otherwise it's very easy to drop out data unnecessarily. The LR feature is nice, but
>> it's still a process that drops out data twice if you edit the photo.
>
>Again, your knowledge and understanding of the function of LR is quite wrong.
>
>> So you take a JPG, put it into LR, edit as you like, and eventually save a version as JPG.
>
>No, I edit a virtual copy of the JPEG, or RAW file as I like. I don’t save 
>a version as a JPEG within LR. However, if I choose to export an edited 
>version of that JPEG, or RAW file I can export it to the export location of 
>my choice, as the file type of my choice () all without reintroducing it into 
>LR.
>
>> I take a photo as JPG, save my first edit as BMP or TIF, then save all other versions the same
way. I end
>> up with a folder containing numerous versions of the photo. You end up with a history in LR. If I
edit it 5 times and maybe save 5 versions there’s no 
>loss. If necessary I might eventually convert one of those to JPG to send to 
>someone.
>
>Well if that works for you, go ahead. You are probably never going to use any 
>Adobe applications, so I don’t see how you have done anything to solve 
>Peter’s original LR issue, or if you even understood it.
>>
>> We both then end up with 2 lossy steps: The original JPG photo and the final JPG save of an
edited image.
>> The only difference is that LR is managing the file storage for you so you don't need to save
TIFs or
>> maintain systematic file storage.
>
>You really don’t understand anything about LR.
>
>>
>> > > That's basically what LR is doing -- saving some kind of backup bitmap
>> image.
>> >
>> > Nope, an XMP sidecar file is not some kind of backup bitmap image. It is a
>> > set of instructions detailing the edits and adjustments.
>> >
>> > <http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp.html>
>> > <http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/tag/xmp-sidecar-files>
>>
>> We discussed this once before. It's all bitmaps. Any raster image is essentially a bitmap. A JPG
>> is a compressed bitmap with some data dropped out. A TIF is usually just a compressed bitmap.
>> A GIF is a bitmap. A PNG is a bitmap. Those are all just different ways to store the image data.
>> Proprietary formats, like Paint Shop Pro's PSP or the PS PSD, store the image plus editing
>> history, unmerged layers, etc. But the image is still going to be a bitmap -- a grid of pixel
color
>> values. That's what goes to the printer or the computer screen. That's what you're applying
filters,
>> sharpening, etc to. Those are all just mathematical formulae applied to bitmaps. Increase the
pixel
>> values and you've lightened. Increase the difference between contiguous pixels and you've
sharpened.
>> Of course it gets very sophisticated when it can do things like remove a chain link fence from
the image,
>> but it's still essentially the same thing.
>
>You are obviously trapped in bitmap theory.
-- 

Regards,

Eric Stevens 

	
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In article<0padvctakfoakuafdfov009u8q7bkgur6l@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens<eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote:

> >> > The original JPEG has lost all it is ever going to lose, there is no
> >> "final
> >> > save" in LR.
> >>
> >> You take a picture as JPG.
> >
> >Yup! That sets your base original.
> >
> >> That's loss #1.
> >
> >No loss, it is converted in-camera from the RAW data to an original JPEG 
> >which is imported into LR.
> >>
> >> You then edit it, say 5 times.
> >
> >You can edit a 100 virtual copies, you are not editing the originally 
> >imported JPEG.
> >
> >> Each time it 

	
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Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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"Eric Stevens"<eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote

| This way you can go on editing and saving JPGs until you are blue in
| the face without accumulating corruptions of the original JPG.
|

  I understood that and went out of my way to clarify
to SD that I agreed with his description. All I ever
said was that every save to a new JPG file, out of LR,
will involve lossiness and that that should be recognized.

  LR provides a way for you to not have to think about
that. I'm only warning not to get lulled by the convenience.
LR is essentially providing an organizing service so that
you don't have to deal with the file system so much.
Nothing wrong with that.

  The difference is that I'm talking in terms of the
data. Some people seem to have very strong feelings
about the word "bitmap". But that's what the images
are. It helps to understand the format.

  The one thing I'm not sure I agree with: How is it
that "SOOC" JPGs are not lossy? JPG compression is
lossy and various camera settings applied to the
JPG will limit the data. There seems to be some kind
of cult developing about the purity of SOOC. 

	
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In article <ot76k8$5di$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mayayana<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> "Eric Stevens"<eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote
> 
> | This way you can go on editing and saving JPGs until you are blue in
> | the face without accumulating corruptions of the original JPG.
> |
> 
>   I understood that and went out of my way to clarify
> to SD that I agreed with his description. All I ever
> said was that every save to a new JPG file, out of LR,
> will involve lossiness and that that should be recognized.

everyone understands that saving to a jpeg is lossy. 

what you don't understand is that there is only *one* save, no matter
how many times the original image is edited. 

>   LR provides a way for you to not have to think about
> that. I'm only warning not to get lulled by the convenience.
> LR is essentially providing an organizing service so that
> you don't have to deal with the file system so much.
> Nothing wrong with that.

in fact, it's quite powerful and goes well beyond what the file system
can do.

>   The difference is that I'm talking in terms of the
> data. Some people seem to have very strong feelings
> about the word "bitmap". But that's what the images
> are. It helps to understand the format.

except that you *still* don't understand how lightroom works.

>   The one thing I'm not sure I agree with: How is it
> that "SOOC" JPGs are not lossy? JPG compression is
> lossy and various camera settings applied to the
> JPG will limit the data. There seems to be some kind
> of cult developing about the purity of SOOC.

nobody said they weren't lossy. 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: A lightroom question
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On Oct 30, 2017, Mayayana wrote
(in article <ot76k8$5di$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

<<Contentious stuff snipped>>
>
> The one thing I'm not sure I agree with: How is it that "SOOC" JPGs are not lossy? JPG compression
is
> lossy and various camera settings applied to the JPG will limit the data. There seems to be some
kind
> of cult developing about the purity of SOOC.

I believe we are talking at cross purposes.

SOOC JPGs are processed in-camera, and when compared with the corresponding 
RAW files there is lossy in-camera compression.
There is a reason I went from shooting RAW only to RAW+JPG. With the Fujifilm 
X-Series cameras the SOOC JPGs also have the Fujifilm film emulations 
applied. These film emulations are not part of the RAW/RAF files.

Once imported into LR that original JPG will suffer no further compression. 
However, since that SOOC JPG is an original which should not be adjusted 
directly, with your editing workflow you would either make a copy, or a bmp, 
or tiff to edit. With my LR/PS workflow, and as a matter of fact the 
standalone On1 &  Exposure X3 workflows, all use XMP sidecar files so that 
all edits are nondestructive.Remember that with your bmp, or tiff copy, you 
have a copy of an original lossy JPG. This is why, shooting RAW only, or 
RAW+JPG, rather than JPG only are the better shooting options.

When it comes to the need for a JPG to share, regardless of what the original 
file was, JPG, RAW, DNG, TIFF, PSD, there will be compression applied to the 
created export JPG, resulting in a lossy file at the export destination, but 
we all understand that JPG is going to be a second generation JPG if created 
from the original SOOC JPG, and it will be compressed, and lossy when 
compared with the original file.

If the exported JPG is sourced from the LR adjusted RAW, DNG, TIFF, PSD it 
will actually be a first generation JPG. In all cases the LR user will 
control the level of compression, and any resizing in that export dialog, and 
in the case of my exported JPGs there is no expectation that any further 
editing, or resaves should be made.

-- 

Regards,
Savageduck 

	
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"Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote

| I believe we are talking at cross purposes.
|

<snip>

  Yes. What you justy wrote seems thorough, clear
and accurate to me. Sorry if I wasn't clear earlier. 

	
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
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On 10/29/2017 5:17 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "PeterN" <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net> wrote
> 
> | I would think that in most cases, editing a JPEG file in LR should not
> | make any difference, because you are only changing the instructions, not
> | working on the file itself. No matter how many times you edit the file,
> | there will only be one change,and that will be when you save it.
> | each additional edit will be on another copy of the file.
> |
> | <https://havecamerawilltravel.com/lightroom/jpgs-lightroom/>
> |
> 
>      He's a bit evasive, focussing on how you can
> make edits and save them as memory in LR. What
> you say matches his description. That's fine, but if
> you edit a JPG you eventually have to save it again
> and that's going to degrade it. No way around that.
> "Only one change" is one change too many if it wasn't
> necessary. If you work with them in LR as
> TIFs and never deal with JPG except to save for
> some target that requires JPG, isn't that the best
> option?
>    In other words, why not RAW -> TIF  and then
> only save to JPG if you have to for the sake of size
> or recipient limitations? JPG shouldn't be thought of
> as a storage format. It's only used for photos
> because it's universal and most people don't edit.
> It's *not* used because it's an appropriate format.
> 
> 

Yes. But I was responding to the situation where there already are JPEGs.

-- 
PeterN 

	
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"PeterN" <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net> wrote

| Yes. But I was responding to the situation where there already are JPEGs.
|

  Yes. Sorry to complicate things. There's a
debate raging that's completely unnecessary.
Everyone agrees with this that you said:

"If I have a JPEG in my LR collection that has been previously
exported, since later adjustments will be to the LR copy, and not the
exported JPEG, it will not cause further degradation."

  My only point was to not lose track and think
that LR is protecting from JPG lossiness. Not
a disagreement. Just a reminder that any export
from LR as JPG will be lossy. The earlier
exported JPG you referenced was lossy. The next
export will be lossy. The LR difference is that it's
not doing a lossy save internally when you do
edits. So it's fine only as long as the image is
being saved within LR.

  Maybe it seems like I'm splitting hairs, but the
fact that this question came up seems to me
an indicator of possible confusion due to the
convenience that LR offers. It's abstracting the
actual process, hiding the details of storing
bitmap data so that you can think of it as an
"edited JPG without loss".