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Subject: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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From: sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 11:28:25 -0700
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My wife and daughter are going on an Inca Trail trip to Machu Pichu next 
year.

What are some ways to manage the lack of any way to charge devices along 
the way?

I can give them some USB power banks, though these are rather heavy to 
carry and the losses to charge one battery from another battery are 
significant.

 From what I've seen of the hand-crank USB chargers, they are really not 
practical, you'd have to stay up all night cranking just to charge a 
small battery.

There are some small solar panels that hang on a backpack, that claim to 
deliver 500mA of current, and that are about $100. These could probably 
charge a 1200mAH battery in five or six hours.

There is a wood-powered USB charger, but I don't know if it's possible 
to find fuel along the trail. This would be good to use at night, since 
solar obviously won't work. 
<https://www.bioliteenergy.com/products/campstove-2>

Or I can just buy them four or five spare camera batteries each. These 
are for compact P&S cameras, not for SLRs, and after-market batteries 
are $10 each.

Has anyone here come up with a good solution for trips of several days 
where they will not have any access to electricity?

The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our many old P&S 
film cameras and that they take a bunch of film. 

	
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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From: Neil <neil@myplaceofwork.com>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 14:39:33 -0400
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On 10/29/2017 2:28 PM, sms wrote:
> My wife and daughter are going on an Inca Trail trip to Machu Pichu next 
> year.
> 
> What are some ways to manage the lack of any way to charge devices along 
> the way?
> 
> I can give them some USB power banks, though these are rather heavy to 
> carry and the losses to charge one battery from another battery are 
> significant.
> 
>  From what I've seen of the hand-crank USB chargers, they are really not 
> practical, you'd have to stay up all night cranking just to charge a 
> small battery.
> 
> There are some small solar panels that hang on a backpack, that claim to 
> deliver 500mA of current, and that are about $100. These could probably 
> charge a 1200mAH battery in five or six hours.
> 
> There is a wood-powered USB charger, but I don't know if it's possible 
> to find fuel along the trail. This would be good to use at night, since 
> solar obviously won't work. 
> <https://www.bioliteenergy.com/products/campstove-2>
> 
> Or I can just buy them four or five spare camera batteries each. These 
> are for compact P&S cameras, not for SLRs, and after-market batteries 
> are $10 each.
> 
> Has anyone here come up with a good solution for trips of several days 
> where they will not have any access to electricity?
> 
> The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our many old P&S 
> film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.

Of your choices, it sounds like the best option is to buy extra camera 
batteries and a multi-battery charger when they have access to AC power.

-- 
best regards,

Neil 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On 29/10/2017 18:39, Neil wrote:
> On 10/29/2017 2:28 PM, sms wrote:
>> My wife and daughter are going on an Inca Trail trip to Machu Pichu 
>> next year.
>>
>> What are some ways to manage the lack of any way to charge devices 
>> along the way?
>>
>> I can give them some USB power banks, though these are rather heavy to 
>> carry and the losses to charge one battery from another battery are 
>> significant.
>>
>>  From what I've seen of the hand-crank USB chargers, they are really 
>> not practical, you'd have to stay up all night cranking just to charge 
>> a small battery.
>>
>> There are some small solar panels that hang on a backpack, that claim 
>> to deliver 500mA of current, and that are about $100. These could 
>> probably charge a 1200mAH battery in five or six hours.
>>
>> There is a wood-powered USB charger, but I don't know if it's possible 
>> to find fuel along the trail. This would be good to use at night, 
>> since solar obviously won't work. 
>> <https://www.bioliteenergy.com/products/campstove-2>
>>
>> Or I can just buy them four or five spare camera batteries each. These 
>> are for compact P&S cameras, not for SLRs, and after-market batteries 
>> are $10 each.
>>
>> Has anyone here come up with a good solution for trips of several days 
>> where they will not have any access to electricity?
>>
>> The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our many old 
>> P&S film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.
> 
> Of your choices, it sounds like the best option is to buy extra camera 
> batteries and a multi-battery charger when they have access to AC power.
> 
+1. Assuming they will be taking "tourist" numbers of images rather than 
professional, and know how to switch off the screen (and wifi, for newer 
cameras). My impression from my kids (who are pretty serious travellers) 
phone charging is seldom a problem even somewhat off the mainstream routes. 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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From: nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 16:14:50 -0400
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In article <ot56kb$mmj$1@dont-email.me>, sms<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our many old P&S 
> film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.

then they'd have to carry a shitload of film and deal with it being
nuked at the airports. 

	
From: MC <any@any.any>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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From: "MC" <any@any.any>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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nospam wrote:

> In article <ot56kb$mmj$1@dont-email.me>, sms
><scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> 
> > The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our many
> > old P&S film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.
> 
> then they'd have to carry a shitload of film and deal with it being
> nuked at the airports.

Not with those lead lined (or whatever they were) anti-nuke film bags.
I used to have three or four of them.

MC 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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From: nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 23:36:14 -0400
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In article<xn0kwtpk6fning000@news.virginmedia.com>, MC<any@any.any>
wrote:

> > 
> > > The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our many
> > > old P&S film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.
> > 
> > then they'd have to carry a shitload of film and deal with it being
> > nuked at the airports.
> 
> Not with those lead lined (or whatever they were) anti-nuke film bags.
> I used to have three or four of them.

<https://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Tra...
ortation/Do_X_Rays_Harm_My_Film/default.htm>
  The once popular lead-lined carry bags aren't practical today because
  if an inspector can't see through the bag, he will increase the
  intensity of the x-ray until he can. Therefore, film may receive more
  harmful radiation than it would otherwise if it were normally
  inspected.

the tsa will normally require that the film be removed from such a bag
and put through the x-ray unprotected.

you can ask for a hand inspection, but they don't have to oblige and
can confiscate the film (or anything else) for any reason they want,
'out of an abundance of caution.'

meanwhile, memory cards can hold many thousands of photos and
unaffected by x-rays. 

	
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On Monday, 30 October 2017 03:36:18 UTC, nospam  wrote:
> In article<xn0kwtpk6fning000@news.virginmedia.com>, MC<any@any.any>
> wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > > The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our many
> > > > old P&S film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.
> > > 
> > > then they'd have to carry a shitload of film and deal with it being
> > > nuked at the airports.
> > 
> > Not with those lead lined (or whatever they were) anti-nuke film bags.
> > I used to have three or four of them.
> 
> <https://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Tra...
> ortation/Do_X_Rays_Harm_My_Film/default.htm>
>   The once popular lead-lined carry bags aren't practical today because
>   if an inspector can't see through the bag, he will increase the
>   intensity of the x-ray until he can. Therefore, film may receive more
>   harmful radiation than it would otherwise if it were normally
>   inspected.
> 
> the tsa will normally require that the film be removed from such a bag
> and put through the x-ray unprotected.
> 
> you can ask for a hand inspection, but they don't have to oblige and
> can confiscate the film (or anything else) for any reason they want,
> 'out of an abundance of caution.'
> 
> meanwhile, memory cards can hold many thousands of photos and
> unaffected by x-rays.

But the OP problem/concern was having enough power to write the images to memoery cards and it
doesn;t matter how many memeory cards yuo have if the camera batteries flat they aren't any use at
all.

That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is that you can take pictures
without any form of electrical power. 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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In article<c3e7c067-97f9-4589-81dc-75848bf64a26@googlegroups.com>,
Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:

> That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is that
> you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.

only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.

perhaps they could stop at an antique store prior to the journey to
find such a camera. 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On Tuesday, 31 October 2017 14:18:24 UTC, nospam  wrote:
> In article<c3e7c067-97f9-4589-81dc-75848bf64a26@googlegroups.com>,
> Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is that
> > you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.
> 
> only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
> the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.

Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been done for years in the past.
Someone that knows what they are doing could take a pretty good guess.


 
> perhaps they could stop at an antique store prior to the journey to
> find such a camera.

Well anyone that doesn't take enough batteries or a way to charge those batteries in a similar
sitution might be better off with film at least they'll get a result something they won't get with
dead batteries.

I believe those with pacemakers should take care too, one or our most famous DJs John Peel died on
machu picchu because of lack of oxygen. 

	
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In article<dc508185-fce3-4a40-bbca-5ffc124aeb89@googlegroups.com>,
Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:

> > 
> > > That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is that
> > > you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.
> > 
> > only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
> > the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.
> 
> Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been done for
> years in the past. Someone that knows what they are doing could take a pretty
> good guess.

most people don't.

> > perhaps they could stop at an antique store prior to the journey to
> > find such a camera.
> 
> Well anyone that doesn't take enough batteries or a way to charge those
> batteries in a similar sitution might be better off with film at least
> they'll get a result something they won't get with dead batteries.

batteries are widely available. 

	
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
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On Tuesday, 31 October 2017 16:41:49 UTC, nospam  wrote:
> In article<dc508185-fce3-4a40-bbca-5ffc124aeb89@googlegroups.com>,
> Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > > That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is that
> > > > you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.
> > > 
> > > only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
> > > the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.
> > 
> > Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been done for
> > years in the past. Someone that knows what they are doing could take a pretty
> > good guess.
> 
> most people don't.

Then that's what seperate photographers from picture takers.

 
> > > perhaps they could stop at an antique store prior to the journey to
> > > find such a camera.
> > 
> > Well anyone that doesn't take enough batteries or a way to charge those
> > batteries in a similar sitution might be better off with film at least
> > they'll get a result something they won't get with dead batteries.
> 
> batteries are widely available.

I wouldn't rely on getting a canon or nikon battery for a DLSR at the top of machu picchu, have you
been there ? I haven't but a friend has. 

	
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In article<417fbb8a-2124-4af9-9a04-49383e75d2ea@googlegroups.com>,
Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > > That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is
> > > > > that
> > > > > you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.
> > > > 
> > > > only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
> > > > the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.
> > > 
> > > Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been done
> > > for
> > > years in the past. Someone that knows what they are doing could take a
> > > pretty
> > > good guess.
> > 
> > most people don't.
> 
> Then that's what seperate photographers from picture takers.

photographer means picture taker.

> > > > perhaps they could stop at an antique store prior to the journey to
> > > > find such a camera.
> > > 
> > > Well anyone that doesn't take enough batteries or a way to charge those
> > > batteries in a similar sitution might be better off with film at least
> > > they'll get a result something they won't get with dead batteries.
> > 
> > batteries are widely available.
> 
> I wouldn't rely on getting a canon or nikon battery for a DLSR at the top of
> machu picchu, have you been there ? I haven't but a friend has.

bring spare batteries before you go, along with hundreds of rolls of
film.

don't blame nikon/canon for being unprepared.

meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
single battery charge. 

	
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
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On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 13:09:21 UTC, nospam  wrote:
> In article<417fbb8a-2124-4af9-9a04-49383e75d2ea@googlegroups.com>,
> Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > > > > That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.
> > > > > 
> > > > > only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
> > > > > the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.
> > > > 
> > > > Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been done
> > > > for
> > > > years in the past. Someone that knows what they are doing could take a
> > > > pretty
> > > > good guess.
> > > 
> > > most people don't.
> > 
> > Then that's what seperate photographers from picture takers.
> 
> photographer means picture taker.

Not to those that know the difference.
But if you consider all photos to be snaps and those that take selfies portrait artists, then I'm an
 athelete .


 
> > > > > perhaps they could stop at an antique store prior to the journey to
> > > > > find such a camera.
> > > > 
> > > > Well anyone that doesn't take enough batteries or a way to charge those
> > > > batteries in a similar sitution might be better off with film at least
> > > > they'll get a result something they won't get with dead batteries.
> > > 
> > > batteries are widely available.
> > 
> > I wouldn't rely on getting a canon or nikon battery for a DLSR at the top of
> > machu picchu, have you been there ? I haven't but a friend has.
> 
> bring spare batteries before you go, along with hundreds of rolls of
> film.

You should take what you need.


> don't blame nikon/canon for being unprepared.

I didn't, but don;t expect to buy the batteries you want at the top of machu picchu because there
isn't one, there isnlt a michelin restaurant either.
 

> 
> meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
> on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
> single battery charge.

If they have charge in theior batteries if they have they'll get nothing on their memoery cards. 

	
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From: nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 09:49:49 -0400
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In article<752ed345-a6bb-4ae8-ac9a-637ddb8d5449@googlegroups.com>,
Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > > > > That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate
> > > > > > > camera) is
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
> > > > > > the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been
> > > > > done
> > > > > for
> > > > > years in the past. Someone that knows what they are doing could take a
> > > > > pretty
> > > > > good guess.
> > > > 
> > > > most people don't.
> > > 
> > > Then that's what seperate photographers from picture takers.
> > 
> > photographer means picture taker.
> 
> Not to those that know the difference.

there is no difference.

everyone who takes a photo, no matter how good or bad it may be, no
matter what the purpose of the photo is for, is a photographer, by
definition. obviously, some photographers are better than others, but
they are *all* photographers. 

> But if you consider all photos to be snaps and those that take selfies
> portrait artists, then I'm an  athelete .

that's not what i said. 

> > > > > > perhaps they could stop at an antique store prior to the journey to
> > > > > > find such a camera.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well anyone that doesn't take enough batteries or a way to charge
> > > > > those
> > > > > batteries in a similar sitution might be better off with film at least
> > > > > they'll get a result something they won't get with dead batteries.
> > > > 
> > > > batteries are widely available.
> > > 
> > > I wouldn't rely on getting a canon or nikon battery for a DLSR at the top
> > > of
> > > machu picchu, have you been there ? I haven't but a friend has.
> > 
> > bring spare batteries before you go, along with hundreds of rolls of
> > film.
> 
> You should take what you need.

how do you know how much that is going to be? you don't.

it's better to have extra that goes unused than not enough and miss
opportunities.

> > don't blame nikon/canon for being unprepared.
> 
> I didn't, but don;t expect to buy the batteries you want at the top of machu
> picchu because there isn't one, there isnlt a michelin restaurant either.

that's why you prepare ahead of time.

> > meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
> > on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
> > single battery charge.
> 
> If they have charge in theior batteries if they have they'll get nothing on their memoery cards.

that's why they charge the batteries ahead of time.

if they aren't prepared, then they have only themselves to blame. 

	
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
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On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 13:49:53 UTC, nospam  wrote:
> In article<752ed345-a6bb-4ae8-ac9a-637ddb8d5449@googlegroups.com>,
> Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > > > > > > That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate
> > > > > > > > camera) is
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
> > > > > > > the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been
> > > > > > done
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > years in the past. Someone that knows what they are doing could take a
> > > > > > pretty
> > > > > > good guess.
> > > > > 
> > > > > most people don't.
> > > > 
> > > > Then that's what seperate photographers from picture takers.
> > > 
> > > photographer means picture taker.
> > 
> > Not to those that know the difference.
> 
> there is no difference.

There is for most as with all professions. Someone that hands yuo a plaster for a cut is NOT classed
as a doctor or a nurse just because they handed yuo something medical. Here a grease moneky that
repairs yuor car may call himslef an engineer but engineers have to have a formal qualification.
Remmebr that monkey that took the photogrphy of himslef woukld you hire him as a photographer.


> 
> everyone who takes a photo, no matter how good or bad it may be, no
> matter what the purpose of the photo is for, is a photographer, 

Not in most peoples eyes they aren;t they are taking photos, maybe you can't tell the differnce
perhaps that's it.

>by
> definition. obviously, some photographers are better than others, but
> they are *all* photographers. 

Perhaps by you, but I wouldn't call the monkey a photographer.

Just because I trotted to the bus this morning I do NOT consider myself an athelete.
I can add up 1+1 even in my head does that make me a mathematician ?

I can cook a ready meal in the microwave but I don't consider myself a cook or a chef.


> > But if you consider all photos to be snaps and those that take selfies
> > portrait artists, then I'm an  athelete .
> 
> that's not what i said. 

pretty close to it.


> > > > > > > perhaps they could stop at an antique store prior to the journey to
> > > > > > > find such a camera.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Well anyone that doesn't take enough batteries or a way to charge
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > batteries in a similar sitution might be better off with film at least
> > > > > > they'll get a result something they won't get with dead batteries.
> > > > > 
> > > > > batteries are widely available.
> > > > 
> > > > I wouldn't rely on getting a canon or nikon battery for a DLSR at the top
> > > > of
> > > > machu picchu, have you been there ? I haven't but a friend has.
> > > 
> > > bring spare batteries before you go, along with hundreds of rolls of
> > > film.
> > 
> > You should take what you need.
> 
> how do you know how much that is going to be? you don't.

I could give a good estimate.
When I go to a gig I know I can do about 84 mins of live video with my single battery in my EOS 3M.
I know that for the average 40 mins set I can easily fit onto a 8BG card that's why I tend to have a
16GB installed and a spare 4 or 8 GB in my jeans watch pocket.



 
> it's better to have extra that goes unused than not enough and miss
> opportunities.

yes I know but that doesn;t mean I have to go out and buy 100 SD cards incase I record more than I
expect.

 
> > > don't blame nikon/canon for being unprepared.
> > 
> > I didn't, but don;t expect to buy the batteries you want at the top of machu
> > picchu because there isn't one, there isnlt a michelin restaurant either.
> 
> that's why you prepare ahead of time.

So charge your batteries and/or have spares.
You can still buy film in most chemists drug stores here, even some tobbaconists but few will be
able to sell you a battery for your DLSR should you drop it over the cliffs.


> > > meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
> > > on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
> > > single battery charge.
> > 
> > If they have charge in their batteries if they have they'll get nothing on their memoery cards.
> 
> that's why they charge the batteries ahead of time.
> 
> if they aren't prepared, then they have only themselves to blame. 

	
From: Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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nospam<nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article<417fbb8a-2124-4af9-9a04-49383e75d2ea@googlegroups.com>,
> Whisky-dave<whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>>>>> That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is
>>>>>> that you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.
>>>>> 
>>>>> only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
>>>>> the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.
>>>> 
>>>> Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been done
>>>> for years in the past. Someone that knows what they are doing could take a
>>>> pretty good guess.
>>> 
>>> most people don't.
>> 
>> Then that's what seperate photographers from picture takers.
> 
> photographer means picture taker.
> 

Actually it means “light drawer”

> 



-- 
Regards,
 Savageduck 

	
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On 11/1/2017 9:09 AM, nospam wrote:

<snip>

> 
> meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
> on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
> single battery charge.
> 

I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in 
RAW. Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap. I would find out at 
which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get 
no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day, 
+ a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away 
from a place where they can backup to the cloud.

As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem. Depending on 
their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring 
bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from 
the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of  planning 
involved. it is worth doing so.

-- 
PeterN 

	
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From: nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
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In article<otd0ad0af1@news4.newsguy.com>, PeterN
<"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net> wrote:

> > 
> > meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
> > on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
> > single battery charge.
> > 
> 
> I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in 
> RAW. 

absolutely. why would you think otherwise?

> Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap. 

compared to another trip, yes they are. 

> I would find out at 
> which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get 
> no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day, 
> + a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away 
> from a place where they can backup to the cloud.

i suppose you know how fast the internet service is, that it won't be
overloaded when you want to use it, what computer they have and what
version operating system is installed.

> As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem. Depending on 
> their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring 
> bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from 
> the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of  planning 
> involved. 

actually, very little planning.

> it is worth doing so.

that's the whole point. 

	
From: Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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From: Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz>
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On Wed, 01 Nov 2017 14:11:05 -0400, nospam<nospam@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article<otd0ad0af1@news4.newsguy.com>, PeterN
><"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net> wrote:
>
>> > 
>> > meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
>> > on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
>> > single battery charge.
>> > 
>> 
>> I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in 
>> RAW. 
>
>absolutely. why would you think otherwise?
>
>> Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap. 
>
>compared to another trip, yes they are. 
>
>> I would find out at 
>> which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get 
>> no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day, 
>> + a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away 
>> from a place where they can backup to the cloud.
>
>i suppose you know how fast the internet service is, that it won't be
>overloaded when you want to use it, what computer they have and what
>version operating system is installed.
>
>> As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem. Depending on 
>> their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring 
>> bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from 
>> the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of  planning 
>> involved. 
>
>actually, very little planning.
>
>> it is worth doing so.
>
>that's the whole point.
-- 

Regards,

Eric Stevens 

	
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On 11/1/2017 2:11 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article<otd0ad0af1@news4.newsguy.com>, PeterN
> <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net> wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
>>> on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
>>> single battery charge.
>>>
>>
>> I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in
>> RAW.
> 
> absolutely. why would you think otherwise?
> 
>> Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap.
> 
> compared to another trip, yes they are.
> 
>> I would find out at
>> which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get
>> no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day,
>> + a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away
>> from a place where they can backup to the cloud.
> 
> i suppose you know how fast the internet service is, that it won't be
> overloaded when you want to use it, what computer they have and what
> version operating system is installed.
> 
>> As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem. Depending on
>> their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring
>> bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from
>> the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of  planning
>> involved.
> 
> actually, very little planning.
> 
>> it is worth doing so.
> 
> that's the whole point.
> 

Your creative snipping does not make it clear that you made the 
statement I responded to.
Our other comments are obviously intended to start an argument. Sorry I 
won't bite.

-- 
PeterN 

	
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From: nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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In article<otfibc026v8@news4.newsguy.com>, PeterN
<"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net> wrote:

> Our other comments are obviously intended to start an argument. Sorry I 
> won't bite.

too late for that. you already bit. 

	
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On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, PeterN wrote:
> [...]Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap.

I guess this depends on what one considers 'cheap' or not.

For example, a random "good" CF card at B&H today is $80 for 
a 64GB card, or $1.25/GB.  That's downright cheap in comparison
to how much memory cards cost 5, 10 (or more) years ago.  

And for this $80, at roughly 30MB per (RAW+JPG pair) image, 
it represents 2000+ photos ... that's 10 days at 200 images/day
(or 5 days @ 400/day, etc).  


> I would find out at which points there are provisions for 
> back ups to the cloud. 

YMMV.  I've found that I can travel lighter (and without a
laptop) by simply "throwing money" to have more cards.
Specifically, enough to last the whole vacation so that
I don't need to carry the extra weight of a laptop or to 
spend time finding an internet kiosk that I could upload.  

For example, I got a new camera last year and caught a nice
sale at B&H:  paid $100 for 192GB (2@32GB + 2@64GB).  Lexar
800x UDMA CF Cards.  
  

> As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem.

Yup...but again, when compared to the cost of an international
vacation, another 4 * $50 = $200 for batteries (or whatever) 
that you'll be able to repeatedly use for the next ~5 years 
worth of vacations is an expense that's an initial nuisance, 
but not really a big deal when viewed in context of how many 
such trips it will be an enabler.  Ditto for buying a second
battery charger for redundancy (risk reduction) for $20:

<https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/837451-REG/watson_c_1517_comp...


> Depending on their camera's battery usage, figure battery
> usage per day, and bring bring enough batteries to get them
> to the charging station furthest from the preceding station. 
> While there is a fair amount of  planning involved. it is 
> worth doing so.


Agreed, and the data requirements really aren't all that bad;
just need:

A = # of days away from next chance for power 
B = # of days away from the next-after- of "A", above

C = expected # of photos per battery pack for camera A, B, (etc)
D = expected # of photos you expect to take on each day 
E = risk management fudge factor (percentage)

Thus:

A*(D/C) = minimum number of battery packs expected to be used

(A*(D/C)*E) + (B*(D/C)*E) = "Risk management" practical upper limit 

Applying some notional numbers for a single camera:

A=4
B=2
C=800 (Canon 7D's CIPA standard, w/Optical Viewfinder)
D=300
E=+50% margin

The minimum number of battery packs expected to be used:
= A*(D/C) 
= (4 days)*(300pix per day/800pics per battery) 
= 1.5 batteries ... so take two.  

The "Risk management" practical upper limit:
= (A*(D/C)*E) + (B*(D/C)*E) 
= (4*(300/800)*1.5)+(2*(300/800)*1.5) 
= 2.25 + 1.225 = 3.375 batteries ... so take four.  

Similarly for memory cards, 

F = Camera's average # shots per 32GB card (or whatever)
(for a Canon 7D, assume ~1000 shots per 32GB card)

The minimum number of 32GB cards expected to be needed:
= A*(D/F) = (4 days)*(300 shots per day / 1000 per 32GB card)
= 1.2 cards ... so take 2 cards

The "Risk management" practical upper limit:
= (A*(D/F)*E)+(B*(D/F)*E)
= (4*(300/1000)*1.5)+(2*(300/1000)*1.5) 
= 2.7 cards ... so take 3 cards

Alternatively:

G = total length of vacation 
H = number of days in G where the shots/day rate from D applies
J = average # of shots/day for where H doesn't apply (such as in-transit)

Let:

G = 14 days 
H = 4 days
J = 100/day

Total trip memory card "magazine depth" requirement estimate:

= (H*(D/F)*E)) + ((G-H)*(D/F)*E)
= (4*(100/1000)*1.5)+(14-4)*(300/1000)*1.5) 
= (0.6) + (4.5) 
= 5.1 cards ... so take six 

(or cut it closer by refining to 5.1*32GB = 163GB required)


-hh 

	
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On 11/1/2017 5:38 PM, -hh wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, PeterN wrote:
>> [...]Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap.
> 
> I guess this depends on what one considers 'cheap' or not.
> 
> For example, a random "good" CF card at B&H today is $80 for
> a 64GB card, or $1.25/GB.  That's downright cheap in comparison
> to how much memory cards cost 5, 10 (or more) years ago.
> 
> And for this $80, at roughly 30MB per (RAW+JPG pair) image,
> it represents 2000+ photos ... that's 10 days at 200 images/day
> (or 5 days @ 400/day, etc).
> 
> 
>> I would find out at which points there are provisions for
>> back ups to the cloud.
> 
> YMMV.  I've found that I can travel lighter (and without a
> laptop) by simply "throwing money" to have more cards.
> Specifically, enough to last the whole vacation so that
> I don't need to carry the extra weight of a laptop or to
> spend time finding an internet kiosk that I could upload.
> 
> For example, I got a new camera last year and caught a nice
> sale at B&H:  paid $100 for 192GB (2@32GB + 2@64GB).  Lexar
> 800x UDMA CF Cards.
>    
> 
>> As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem.
> 
> Yup...but again, when compared to the cost of an international
> vacation, another 4 * $50 = $200 for batteries (or whatever)
> that you'll be able to repeatedly use for the next ~5 years
> worth of vacations is an expense that's an initial nuisance,
> but not really a big deal when viewed in context of how many
> such trips it will be an enabler.  Ditto for buying a second
> battery charger for redundancy (risk reduction) for $20:
> 
> <https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/837451-REG/watson_c_1517_comp...
> 
> 
>> Depending on their camera's battery usage, figure battery
>> usage per day, and bring bring enough batteries to get them
>> to the charging station furthest from the preceding station.
>> While there is a fair amount of  planning involved. it is
>> worth doing so.
> 
> 
> Agreed, and the data requirements really aren't all that bad;
> just need:
> 
> A = # of days away from next chance for power
> B = # of days away from the next-after- of "A", above
> 
> C = expected # of photos per battery pack for camera A, B, (etc)
> D = expected # of photos you expect to take on each day
> E = risk management fudge factor (percentage)
> 
> Thus:
> 
> A*(D/C) = minimum number of battery packs expected to be used
> 
> (A*(D/C)*E) + (B*(D/C)*E) = "Risk management" practical upper limit
> 
> Applying some notional numbers for a single camera:
> 
> A=4
> B=2
> C=800 (Canon 7D's CIPA standard, w/Optical Viewfinder)
> D=300
> E=+50% margin
> 
> The minimum number of battery packs expected to be used:
> = A*(D/C)
> = (4 days)*(300pix per day/800pics per battery)
> = 1.5 batteries ... so take two.
> 
> The "Risk management" practical upper limit:
> = (A*(D/C)*E) + (B*(D/C)*E)
> = (4*(300/800)*1.5)+(2*(300/800)*1.5)
> = 2.25 + 1.225 = 3.375 batteries ... so take four.
> 
> Similarly for memory cards,
> 
> F = Camera's average # shots per 32GB card (or whatever)
> (for a Canon 7D, assume ~1000 shots per 32GB card)
> 
> The minimum number of 32GB cards expected to be needed:
> = A*(D/F) = (4 days)*(300 shots per day / 1000 per 32GB card)
> = 1.2 cards ... so take 2 cards
> 
> The "Risk management" practical upper limit:
> = (A*(D/F)*E)+(B*(D/F)*E)
> = (4*(300/1000)*1.5)+(2*(300/1000)*1.5)
> = 2.7 cards ... so take 3 cards
> 
> Alternatively:
> 
> G = total length of vacation
> H = number of days in G where the shots/day rate from D applies
> J = average # of shots/day for where H doesn't apply (such as in-transit)
> 
> Let:
> 
> G = 14 days
> H = 4 days
> J = 100/day
> 
> Total trip memory card "magazine depth" requirement estimate:
> 
> = (H*(D/F)*E)) + ((G-H)*(D/F)*E)
> = (4*(100/1000)*1.5)+(14-4)*(300/1000)*1.5)
> = (0.6) + (4.5)
> = 5.1 cards ... so take six
> 
> (or cut it closer by refining to 5.1*32GB = 163GB required)
> 
Depends on the camera, and file settings.
D800 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 74.4 MB.
D500 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 25.0 MB.

Other modes have considerably less. Basic arithmetic will tell you that 
you cannot get thousands of images when shooting at 14 bit uncompressed 
NEF.
That is why I said it depends on the camera and shooting mode. I 
typically shoot at 14 bit RAW. Others may not, and there are times when 
I don't. (I will not get into a debate about bit depth, I like to do 
tings that way, have done lots of reading and testing.)




-- 
PeterN 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
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PeterN wrote:
> Depends on the camera, and file settings. 

But of course!

> D800 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 74.4 MB. 
> D500 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 25.0 MB. 

The latter is close enough to my Canon's data consumption rate ... and 
the 192GB in CF cards which I paid only (yes, got lucky) $100 for affords
over 5,000 exposures (in RAW+JPG).

For the D800, it gets a bit over 800 shots out of each 64GB card, and 192GB 
works out to roughly 2,500 shots.  That's 10 days @ 250/day...enough capacity yet?  

> Basic arithmetic will tell you that you cannot get thousands of images when 
> shooting at 14 bit uncompressed NEF. 

Sorry, but since it can be shot & stored, the number of GB for storage for 1,000 shots is simple
math.

And at ~$1/GB (retail), the estimated acquisition cost is quite straightforward too.

This isn't a technology barrier - it's merely cost...and as I said, memory cars are profoundly
cheaper 
today than even but just a few years ago.  

And frankly, when we dropping $2K for a body or $1K for a lens, why should spending 
+$100 for having a 1,000 magazine depth (or +$200 for 2K) be such an whinefest?

Ditto if one considers including travel & vacation expenses ... and even one's PC too...


-hh




-- 
PeterN 

	
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On 11/2/2017 10:28 PM, -hh wrote:
> PeterN wrote:
>> Depends on the camera, and file settings.
> 
> But of course!
> 
>> D800 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 74.4 MB.
>> D500 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 25.0 MB.
> 
> The latter is close enough to my Canon's data consumption rate ... and
> the 192GB in CF cards which I paid only (yes, got lucky) $100 for affords
> over 5,000 exposures (in RAW+JPG).

You did indeed get lucky. Amazon sells the Lexar Professional 128 GB for 
$275. Yes I know there are cheaper cards, but I have used only the Lexar 
or Sandisk. I have read too many horror stories about other brands. I 
will go with the odds.
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OD71AYQ/ref=as_at/?creativeASIN...

> 
> For the D800, it gets a bit over 800 shots out of each 64GB card, and 192GB
> works out to roughly 2,500 shots.  That's 10 days @ 250/day...enough capacity yet?
> 
Capacity sounds about right. When I shoot landscape I shoot at most 
about ten frames per hour, fifty if I am bracketing, (Since there is a 
lot of DR in the D800, 1 EV difference is not very meaningful, 
Therefore, I need five shots to get 2 EV difference.)  If I want to do 
panos, could be significantly more, depending on the scene.

>> Basic arithmetic will tell you that you cannot get thousands of images when
>> shooting at 14 bit uncompressed NEF.
> 
> Sorry, but since it can be shot & stored, the number of GB for storage for 1,000 shots is simple
math.
> 
> And at ~$1/GB (retail), the estimated acquisition cost is quite straightforward too.



> 
> This isn't a technology barrier - it's merely cost...and as I said, memory cars are profoundly
cheaper
> today than even but just a few years ago.
> 
> And frankly, when we dropping $2K for a body or $1K for a lens, why should spending
> +$100 for having a 1,000 magazine depth (or +$200 for 2K) be such an whinefest?

No argument from me, on that. my personal preferences are to use 32 GB 
cards, as that is usually enough for a days shooting. I figure that if I 
lose a card, I only lose that day.
Remember I have two cards in each of my cameras.
YMMV




-- 
PeterN 

	
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On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 1:04:24 PM UTC-4, PeterN wrote:
> On 11/2/2017 10:28 PM, -hh wrote:
> > PeterN wrote:
> >> Depends on the camera, and file settings.
> > 
> > But of course!
> > 
> >> D800 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 74.4 MB.
> >> D500 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 25.0 MB.
> > 
> > The latter is close enough to my Canon's data consumption rate ... and
> > the 192GB in CF cards which I paid only (yes, got lucky) $100 for affords
> > over 5,000 exposures (in RAW+JPG).
> 
> You did indeed get lucky. 

Agreed, and in looking at today's prices, my 2016 purchases were a steal.

FWIW, it also included three 64GB SDXC cards (SanDisk 64GB Extreme 
UHS-I Class 10) for $20 each.  

>  Yes I know there are cheaper cards, but I have used only the Lexar 
> or Sandisk. 

That's where I'm at now...plus I also buy only from B&H, to
minimize counterfeit risks.  My last 'off brand' were some 
Delkin's in 2012 (was $37 for 16GB = ~$2.30/GB)

> Amazon sells the Lexar Professional 128 GB for $275.

>
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OD71AYQ/ref=as_at/?creativeASIN...

Using 32GB cards at B&H, they're currently around ~$1/GB, especially
when at the lower speeds (not sure what you really need (vs want)):

"330x"
$26 ... SanDisk 32GB Ultra ('up to Write 50 / Read 50 MB/sec)

"800x"
$32 ... SanDisk 32 GB Extreme (UDMA 7; Write 85/Read 120 MB/sec)
$60 ... two-pack of same --> works out to $0.94/GB

"1000x"
$48 ... SanDisk 32GB Extreme Pro ({160MB/s} W150/R160 MB/sec)

"1066x"
$75 ... two-pack of Lexar Professional (UDMA 7; W(65)155/R160 MB/sec)
        --> $1.17/GB

Link for the above, plus you can change the search to 64GB cards, etc:

<https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2%7c0&ci=1097&a...

FWIW, I don't see B&H offering any Lexar 128GB's (let alone a "2000x"), but
they do have a Sandisk Extreme ("800x")for $85 and a Sandisk Extreme Pro
("1000x") for $150, which works out to $0.66/GB & $1.17/GB respectively.

And for price history, one can find tools such as:

<https://www.canonpricewatch.com/memory-card-prices/>

and this one for understanding price trends over time:

<https://camelcamelcamel.com/SanDisk-Extreme-CompactFlash-Memory-SDCF...


> > [...]

> If I want to do panos, could be significantly more, depending on the scene.

Yes, there's always more considerations and elements to consider
building into one's contingency plans.  The good news is that
memory pricing isn't one that still costs an arm & leg.


-hh 

	
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On 11/3/2017 2:38 PM, -hh wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 1:04:24 PM UTC-4, PeterN wrote:
>> On 11/2/2017 10:28 PM, -hh wrote:
>>> PeterN wrote:
>>>> Depends on the camera, and file settings.
>>>
>>> But of course!
>>>
>>>> D800 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 74.4 MB.
>>>> D500 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 25.0 MB.
>>>
>>> The latter is close enough to my Canon's data consumption rate ... and
>>> the 192GB in CF cards which I paid only (yes, got lucky) $100 for affords
>>> over 5,000 exposures (in RAW+JPG).
>>
>> You did indeed get lucky.
> 
> Agreed, and in looking at today's prices, my 2016 purchases were a steal.
> 
> FWIW, it also included three 64GB SDXC cards (SanDisk 64GB Extreme
> UHS-I Class 10) for $20 each.
> 
>>   Yes I know there are cheaper cards, but I have used only the Lexar
>> or Sandisk.
> 
> That's where I'm at now...plus I also buy only from B&H, to
> minimize counterfeit risks.  My last 'off brand' were some
> Delkin's in 2012 (was $37 for 16GB = ~$2.30/GB)

I used to deal only with B&H and a local store, Koh's. That started when 
I was pricing a lens, and he was several hundred less than anybody else. 
When I asked him if it was gray market, he said no, it was used. That 
lens could have passed for new. Jimmy though is only authorized to sell 
new Nikon P&S & accessories. He recently retired. Over the last two 
years I developed a relationship with Hunts. I no deal only with them 
and B&H. There have been several times when both have advised me not to 
purchase an item, although it cost them a sale, that would have amounted 
to several hundred dollars.



> 
>> Amazon sells the Lexar Professional 128 GB for $275.
> 
>>
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OD71AYQ/ref=as_at/?creativeASIN...
> 
> Using 32GB cards at B&H, they're currently around ~$1/GB, especially
> when at the lower speeds (not sure what you really need (vs want)):
> 
> "330x"
> $26 ... SanDisk 32GB Ultra ('up to Write 50 / Read 50 MB/sec)
> 
> "800x"
> $32 ... SanDisk 32 GB Extreme (UDMA 7; Write 85/Read 120 MB/sec)
> $60 ... two-pack of same --> works out to $0.94/GB
> 
> "1000x"
> $48 ... SanDisk 32GB Extreme Pro ({160MB/s} W150/R160 MB/sec)
> 
> "1066x"
> $75 ... two-pack of Lexar Professional (UDMA 7; W(65)155/R160 MB/sec)
>          --> $1.17/GB
> 
> Link for the above, plus you can change the search to 64GB cards, etc:
> 
>
<https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2%7c0&ci=1097&a...
> 
> FWIW, I don't see B&H offering any Lexar 128GB's (let alone a "2000x"), but
> they do have a Sandisk Extreme ("800x")for $85 and a Sandisk Extreme Pro
> ("1000x") for $150, which works out to $0.66/GB & $1.17/GB respectively.
> 
> And for price history, one can find tools such as:
> 
> <https://www.canonpricewatch.com/memory-card-prices/>
> 
> and this one for understanding price trends over time:
> 
>
<https://camelcamelcamel.com/SanDisk-Extreme-CompactFlash-Memory-SDCF...
> 
> 
>>> [...]
> 
>> If I want to do panos, could be significantly more, depending on the scene.
> 
> Yes, there's always more considerations and elements to consider
> building into one's contingency plans.  The good news is that
> memory pricing isn't one that still costs an arm & leg.
> 

For the D800 the lower speed CF cards are fine. The SD card throughput 
in the camera is so slow that it almost doesn't matter. However, to 
avoid confusion I get the higher speed SD cards, because my D500 can use 
the higher speed. I like the availability of the higher speed, and the 
cost difference is small, compared to all the other costs involved.

I was recently checking the MTBF, and came across this:
<https://www.amtron.com/cfcard.htm>
Prices are significantly higher. e.g. 16 GB CF card 299.99. Looking at 
the specs, I doubt if my photography would ever require those 
temperature tolerances.


-- 
PeterN 

	
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
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On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 17:31:00 UTC, PeterN  wrote:
> On 11/1/2017 9:09 AM, nospam wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > 
> > meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
> > on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
> > single battery charge.
> > 
> 
> I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in 
> RAW. Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap. I would find out at 
> which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get 
> no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day, 
> + a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away 
> from a place where they can backup to the cloud.

But there isn't a card on the market that will record if there's no power to them or the camera. So
even buying a billion 256GB cards wonlt get you any photos without power, which is why the OP was
asking about charging.
No power no photos it's a simple as that.


> 
> As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem.
 
Yep the OP realised that too.

>Depending on 
> their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring 
> bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from 
> the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of  planning 
> involved. it is worth doing so.

Yep which is why the OP was asking about charging and not about how many and what size memory cards
to take.

This is one of the very few advantages of having a camera that takes common size batteries such as
AA AAA, not only are you more likely to find a local shop selling AAs than  the lastest DLSR
decidated battery there's also the  chance that someone might have a spare set to lend you.

I remmeber taking the batteris (AA) out of my motor drive to power the flash once. 

	
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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From: PeterN <"peter,newdelete"@deleteverizon.net>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On 11/2/2017 6:50 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 17:31:00 UTC, PeterN  wrote:
>> On 11/1/2017 9:09 AM, nospam wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
>>> on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
>>> single battery charge.
>>>
>>
>> I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in
>> RAW. Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap. I would find out at
>> which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get
>> no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day,
>> + a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away
>> from a place where they can backup to the cloud.
> 
> But there isn't a card on the market that will record if there's no power to them or the camera.
So even buying a billion 256GB cards wonlt get you any photos without power, which is why the OP was
asking about charging.
> No power no photos it's a simple as that.
> 
Places to upload to the cloud prescriptively have power to recharge the 
batteries.

> 
>>
>> As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem.
>   
> Yep the OP realised that too.
> 
>> Depending on
>> their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring
>> bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from
>> the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of  planning
>> involved. it is worth doing so.
> 
> Yep which is why the OP was asking about charging and not about how many and what size memory
cards to take.
> 
> This is one of the very few advantages of having a camera that takes common size batteries such as
AA AAA, not only are you more likely to find a local shop selling AAs than  the lastest DLSR
decidated battery there's also the  chance that someone might have a spare set to lend you.
> 
> I remmeber taking the batteris (AA) out of my motor drive to power the flash once.
> 
> 
> 


-- 
PeterN 

	
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
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On Thursday, 2 November 2017 17:35:44 UTC, PeterN  wrote:
> On 11/2/2017 6:50 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 17:31:00 UTC, PeterN  wrote:
> >> On 11/1/2017 9:09 AM, nospam wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
> >>> on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
> >>> single battery charge.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in
> >> RAW. Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap. I would find out at
> >> which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get
> >> no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day,
> >> + a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away
> >> from a place where they can backup to the cloud.
> > 
> > But there isn't a card on the market that will record if there's no power to them or the camera.
So even buying a billion 256GB cards wonlt get you any photos without power, which is why the OP was
asking about charging.
> > No power no photos it's a simple as that.
> > 
> Places to upload to the cloud prescriptively have power to recharge the 
> batteries.

But you won't find such a place at the top of machu picchu that is the point.
The incas did not supply USB charging ports unfortunalty.
You might be lucky and get 3 or 4 G but don;t expect the same sort of upload/download speeds you get
in large cities.
You'll also be suprised to find that there's no mcdonalds at the top of machu picchu.



> >> As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem.
> >   
> > Yep the OP realised that too.
> > 
> >> Depending on
> >> their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring
> >> bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from
> >> the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of  planning
> >> involved. it is worth doing so.
> > 
> > Yep which is why the OP was asking about charging and not about how many and what size memory
cards to take.
> > 
> > This is one of the very few advantages of having a camera that takes common size batteries such
as AA AAA, not only are you more likely to find a local shop selling AAs than  the lastest DLSR
decidated battery there's also the  chance that someone might have a spare set to lend you.
> > 
> > I remmeber taking the batteris (AA) out of my motor drive to power the flash once.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> PeterN 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 9:31:11 AM UTC-4, Whisky-dave wrote:
> On Thursday, 2 November 2017 17:35:44 UTC, PeterN  wrote:
> > 
> > Places to upload to the cloud prescriptively have power to
> > recharge the batteries.
> 
> But you won't find such a place at the top of machu picchu that is the point.

As of a ~decade ago, the only establishment at the top was
the Sanctuary Lodge.  There's been attempts to close it, but 
its reportedly still open:

<https://www.belmond.com/hotels/south-america/peru/machu-picchu/belmo...

I was able to find a simple room rate; a mere $650/night (+10% tax)
which includes WiFi, but not breakfast.  The same room with full
board is $1100/night (after the 10% tax) which is why most visitors
choose instead to stay elsewhere (down in Aguas Calientes).


> You might be lucky ... but don't expect the same sort of 
> upload/download speeds you get in large cities.

WiFi is technically available, but the level of bandwidth
needed for a significant data dump is the risk, and this 
IMO includes the town of Aguas Calientes.  Their only land 
connection to the outside world is the train line and their 
relevant communication lines are IMO probably along the same 
train route.  The rail has had semi-regular seasonal breaks 
in service from spring floods washing out a section, which 
would likely also take out their communication too, although 
when this does happen, the tourism is suspended.  Even so, 
when you have 5,000 tourists arriving back at their hotels 
each evening, the network is going to get crunched.  

As such, I'd be reluctant to assume that I'd be readily able 
to data dump from cards at this stop.  Sure, one may get 
lucky, but for planning purposes, I'd assume nothing more
optimistic than having the first reasonably reliable backup 
opportunity (via an Internet Kiosk) probably won't be until 
returning back to Cuzco...


> You'll also be suprised to find that there's no mcdonalds 
> at the top of machu picchu.

Pragmatically, the trekking groups enter via the Sun Gate
and then stay for most of the day (touring the site) before 
catching a bus for the half hour ride down the switchbacks
to Aguas Calientes.  

The implications here are that one will need to have +1 more 
day's worth of {power & memory cards} after the days on the
trail before getting to a hotel to check in & having the 
opportunity for a systems 'recover' (be this power and/or data).
And since MP is a journey highlight, it can be expected to
be a day with a much higher demand for photo taking.  


-hh 

	
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
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On Friday, 3 November 2017 15:12:32 UTC, -hh  wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 9:31:11 AM UTC-4, Whisky-dave wrote:
> > On Thursday, 2 November 2017 17:35:44 UTC, PeterN  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Places to upload to the cloud prescriptively have power to
> > > recharge the batteries.
> > 
> > But you won't find such a place at the top of machu picchu that is the point.
> 
> As of a ~decade ago, the only establishment at the top was
> the Sanctuary Lodge.  There's been attempts to close it, but 
> its reportedly still open:
> 
> <https://www.belmond.com/hotels/south-america/peru/machu-picchu/belmo...
> 
> I was able to find a simple room rate; a mere $650/night (+10% tax)
> which includes WiFi, but not breakfast.  The same room with full
> board is $1100/night (after the 10% tax) which is why most visitors
> choose instead to stay elsewhere (down in Aguas Calientes).

As the OP implied it's whether you have battery power for taking phosos is what's important.


> 
> WiFi is technically available,

You can't use wifi to take photos.


>but the level of bandwidth
> needed for a significant data dump is the risk, 

Yes if you get that far.


>and this 
> IMO includes the town of Aguas Calientes.  Their only land 
> connection to the outside world is the train line and their 
> relevant communication lines are IMO probably along the same 
> train route.  The rail has had semi-regular seasonal breaks 
> in service from spring floods washing out a section, which 
> would likely also take out their communication too, although 
> when this does happen, the tourism is suspended.  Even so, 
> when you have 5,000 tourists arriving back at their hotels 
> each evening, the network is going to get crunched. 

Yes that would also cause problems.
 
 
> As such, I'd be reluctant to assume that I'd be readily able 
> to data dump from cards at this stop.  Sure, one may get 
> lucky, but for planning purposes, I'd assume nothing more
> optimistic than having the first reasonably reliable backup 
> opportunity (via an Internet Kiosk) probably won't be until 
> returning back to Cuzco...

and depending on your data plan and speeds perhaps not viable at all.
But the most important thing to have is power no power no photos no backup nothing.


 
> 
> The implications here are that one will need to have +1 more 
> day's worth of {power & memory cards} after the days on the
> trail before getting to a hotel to check in & having the 
> opportunity for a systems 'recover' (be this power and/or data).
> And since MP is a journey highlight, it can be expected to
> be a day with a much higher demand for photo taking.  
> 
> 
> -hh 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
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On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 6:54:32 AM UTC-5, Whisky-dave wrote:
> On Friday, 3 November 2017 15:12:32 UTC, -hh  wrote:
> > On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 9:31:11 AM UTC-4, Whisky-dave wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 2 November 2017 17:35:44 UTC, PeterN  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Places to upload to the cloud prescriptively have power to
> > > > recharge the batteries.
> > > 
> > > But you won't find such a place at the top of machu picchu
> > > that is the point.
> > 
> > As of a ~decade ago, the only establishment at the top was
> > the Sanctuary Lodge.  There's been attempts to close it, but 
> > its reportedly still open:
> > 
> > <https://www.belmond.com/hotels/south-america/peru/machu-picchu/belmo...
> > 
> > I was able to find a simple room rate; a mere $650/night (+10% tax)
> > which includes WiFi, but not breakfast.  The same room with full
> > board is $1100/night (after the 10% tax) which is why most visitors
> > choose instead to stay elsewhere (down in Aguas Calientes).
> 
> As the OP implied it's whether you have battery power for taking
> phosos is what's important.

There's multiple points of failure to manage; battery is merely 
one necessary component of the overall system workflows, as is
also the sufficiency of the recording media, getting it safely
home from the remote site, etc.  



> > WiFi is technically available,
> 
> You can't use wifi to take photos.

True, but it is part of a potential workflow to "get the 
photos back home".  Not the only solution, but merely one 
option of several.  Could also use a microSD attached to
the leg of a homing pigeon.  



> >and this 
> > IMO includes the town of Aguas Calientes.  Their only land 
> > connection to the outside world is the train line and their 
> > relevant communication lines are IMO probably along the same 
> > train route.  The rail has had semi-regular seasonal breaks 
> > in service from spring floods washing out a section, which 
> > would likely also take out their communication too, although 
> > when this does happen, the tourism is suspended.  Even so, 
> > when you have 5,000 tourists arriving back at their hotels 
> > each evening, the network is going to get crunched. 
> 
> Yes that would also cause problems.

FYI, same problem also happens on cruise ships.


 -hh 

	
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
From: Whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
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On Monday, 6 November 2017 14:52:27 UTC, -hh  wrote:
> On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 6:54:32 AM UTC-5, Whisky-dave wrote:
> > On Friday, 3 November 2017 15:12:32 UTC, -hh  wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 9:31:11 AM UTC-4, Whisky-dave wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, 2 November 2017 17:35:44 UTC, PeterN  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Places to upload to the cloud prescriptively have power to
> > > > > recharge the batteries.
> > > > 
> > > > But you won't find such a place at the top of machu picchu
> > > > that is the point.
> > > 
> > > As of a ~decade ago, the only establishment at the top was
> > > the Sanctuary Lodge.  There's been attempts to close it, but 
> > > its reportedly still open:
> > > 
> > > <https://www.belmond.com/hotels/south-america/peru/machu-picchu/belmo...
> > > 
> > > I was able to find a simple room rate; a mere $650/night (+10% tax)
> > > which includes WiFi, but not breakfast.  The same room with full
> > > board is $1100/night (after the 10% tax) which is why most visitors
> > > choose instead to stay elsewhere (down in Aguas Calientes).
> > 
> > As the OP implied it's whether you have battery power for taking
> > phosos is what's important.
> 
> There's multiple points of failure to manage; battery is merely 
> one necessary component of the overall system workflows,

Yes but it is the one the OP was asking about, he never said what is the best memoery card to use or
how many or what camera did he.


> as is
> also the sufficiency of the recording media, getting it safely
> home from the remote site, etc.  

No point doing that if you don't have power.


> > > WiFi is technically available,
> > 
> > You can't use wifi to take photos.
> 
> True, but it is part of a potential workflow to "get the 
> photos back home". 

Without power you wouldn't be able to taqke the photos in the first place.


> Not the only solution, but merely one 
> option of several.  Could also use a microSD attached to
> the leg of a homing pigeon.  

But without power they'd be nothing on the microSD card but you might be able to have the pigeon for
lunch over an open fire even without electricity.

 
> > >and this 
> > > IMO includes the town of Aguas Calientes.  Their only land 
> > > connection to the outside world is the train line and their 
> > > relevant communication lines are IMO probably along the same 
> > > train route.  The rail has had semi-regular seasonal breaks 
> > > in service from spring floods washing out a section, which 
> > > would likely also take out their communication too, although 
> > > when this does happen, the tourism is suspended.  Even so, 
> > > when you have 5,000 tourists arriving back at their hotels 
> > > each evening, the network is going to get crunched. 
> > 
> > Yes that would also cause problems.
> 
> FYI, same problem also happens on cruise ships.

I don;t think so most cruise ships have charging points in the cabins, but up the top of a mountain
not very likely.

 That is the point. 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On 29/10/2017 19:28, sms wrote:
> My wife and daughter are going on an Inca Trail trip to Machu Pichu next
> year.
> 
> What are some ways to manage the lack of any way to charge devices along
> the way?
> 
> I can give them some USB power banks, though these are rather heavy to
> carry and the losses to charge one battery from another battery are
> significant.
> 
> From what I've seen of the hand-crank USB chargers, they are really not
> practical, you'd have to stay up all night cranking just to charge a
> small battery.
> 
> There are some small solar panels that hang on a backpack, that claim to
> deliver 500mA of current, and that are about $100. These could probably
> charge a 1200mAH battery in five or six hours.
> 
> There is a wood-powered USB charger, but I don't know if it's possible
> to find fuel along the trail. This would be good to use at night, since
> solar obviously won't work.
> <https://www.bioliteenergy.com/products/campstove-2>
> 
> Or I can just buy them four or five spare camera batteries each. These
> are for compact P&S cameras, not for SLRs, and after-market batteries
> are $10 each.
> 
> Has anyone here come up with a good solution for trips of several days
> where they will not have any access to electricity?
> 
> The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our many old P&S
> film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.

Here is an idea. Think out of the box.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2889932/These-shoes-...

What works for a phone will work for a camera, with some adjustments.
They will be doing a lot of walking right? 

	
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Subject: Re: Inca Trail and Battery Charging
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On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 2:28:30 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> My wife and daughter are going on an Inca Trail trip to
> Machu Pichu next year.

Nice!  FYI, do get into good physical shape, particularly
if you're taking the classical trail (including altitude
acclimation work if possible).
 
> What are some ways to manage the lack of any way to
> charge devices along the way?

I looked into this very same question when we did the 
(easier) "Sacred Valley Trail" a decade ago.  

We ended up having 4 days/3 nights on the trail without
power.  Since one does spend quite a bit of the day 
just hiking, I found that much of the time spent taking
photos was after we hit camp each afternoon.

For how many pics to expend, my data's limited because
it was in the days of film/digital "carrying both", so
much of my stuff was on film ... nevertheless, I'd probably
today gage my expected consumption rate to be ~200 images
per day of hiking, and then potentially as many as 400
images on the day of arrival into Machu Pichu (since the
common itinerary doesn't get you back into a hotel until
after your first day at the site).  

IIRC, the Inca Trail hikers had traditionally spent their
last day on the trail at the campground next to the building
(Youth Hostel?  Pub?) that's above "Winay Wayna"; waking up 
predawn to then be at the Gate of the Sun for sunrise.  I
would have expected for there to probably some power at this 
building, but with supply-vs-demand of all of the other hikers, 
I'd not assume being able to get an outlet...and from a quick
web search, it sounds like it may be a moot point now, as it
appears that this business has since been shut down:

"This is why we can't have nice things on the Incan Trail."

<https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-former-winay-wayna-pub>


> I can [various options] ...

Yes, you've pretty much covered all of the options. The only
thing that's really changed from when I did it is that 
you're not also carrying film and that digital cameras have
become much more power-efficient.


> Has anyone here come up with a good solution for trips of
> several days where they will not have any access to electricity?

Yes, as you've concluded, a pile of spare batteries.

FYI, the one thing that you've possibly missed is to make sure
to have **redundant** battery chargers for your batteries.  Not
only does this allow parallelism (time compression) for when 
you do have access to power, but it eliminates a single point of
failure risk.

(BTW, also carry spare lens caps too).

> The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our 
> many old P&S film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.

I'd limit that option today to if you're going to be off the
grid for more than a week, and if you expect the quantity of
photos to be taken is manageably low.  Even so, today's digital
camera battery "storage" life is quite good too, such that we've
been able to become lazy and not terribly concerned about 
constantly keeping batteries topped up, etc.

----------

FWIW, I had a similar battery life concern & planning on
some of my African safari trips as well ... what would happen
if we hit a camp with zero power?  My basic plan was to have
adequate batteries to be able to go through 3-4 days of normal 
operation, which at ~400 pics/day works out to be a requirement
to have roughly 3 batteries per camera.  FYI, having two 
cameras which use the same battery can help out here too, 
especially from the perspective of reducing the number of
(redundant) chargers you need to have along.


-hh